I wanted to take a moment and discuss something related to the hobbies of several fire alarm enthusiasts, and that is taking pictures of fire alarm devices in public. I had something happen to me today that I feel warrants a discussion.
I had an interview earlier today at a local hospital where I plan on volunteering. While waiting for a ride home, I got out my personal cell phone and took pictures of fire alarm devices from an older Simplex system (80s-90s with whiffleball detectors, 2902-9207 chimes on 2903 light/strobe plates). I made sure not to get pictures of other persons in my shots. There was no information in my volunteer packets that explicitly mentioned anything regarding the use of electronic devices for taking pictures. Shortly afterwards, I was approached by a security guard for the hospital, and I was asked if I was taking pictures, and I confirmed that. The security guard said to me that this was not allowed, as it was a violation of HIPAA regulations (HIPAA stands for Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act). I was asked for personal information (name, occupational status, reason for taking pictures), which was written down on a handheld notepad. I was asked also to delete the pictures I had taken. I complied with all these requests without arguments and promptly apologized for my actions. The security guard then let me go, without detaining me or handcuffing me or referring me over to other law enforcement agencies. The security guard was never up in my personal space and the whole process was calm throughout. I feel like this was more of a warning not to this again instead of being some kind of citation or sanction against me. I felt really scared as I walked away, and I could feel my vision starting to pixelate with shades of green, pink, and gray, all while my hearing started to become muted. All of this gradually went away as I kept walking, but I really felt like I was going to pass out, especially because of how I responded due to my Asperger’s Syndrome. I did not disclose to the security guard that I was on the autism spectrum nor did I mention I was taking pictures of fire alarm devices as a hobby.
Now, I have shared pictures of fire alarm devices I have taken with you all in the past, and in almost all circumstances, I was never confronted nor inquired about my decisions to take fire alarm pictures. I even shared pictures of Beaumont Hospital that never had any information used to identify patients with, and I wasn’t even confronted. I started taking pictures back in November 2015 as a way for me to contribute my findings on fire alarm systems, and now I am at an impasse about where to go from here. I know of a couple of retail chains (Toys R Us, Pier 1 Imports) that don’t allow photography (as explained to customers next to store hours). I didn’t notice any photography restrictions inside a hospital setting, but I chose to be ignorant and take pictures due to the historic/unique nature of the devices; therefore, I accept full responsibility for what happened and for what may happen based on my actions.
My questions to all of you are as follows: What have been your experiences in taking fire alarm photos? Have you had similar situations like mine?
I was followed around by security for a few minutes at the now closed St Petersburg FL pier after snapping a few alarm pics with a camera about 7 years ago. Was never confronted, questioned, or detained by them and stopped once I realized they were folowing me (my wife yelled at me afterwords…nothing new), and a couple of weeks ago, got yelled at by a manager at a Chinese restaurant in Tolland CT (next town over), while trying to snap a pic of a newly installed P2R on a 9101 (there was a 9838 originally where the P2R sits) with my phone. He didn’t know I took a pic of the alarm, just that I took a pic and there’s a no photos in the restaurant policy (no signs anywhere indicating this). I apologized told him I didn’t know, and quietly walked out with my food and a very blurry pic that I ended up deleting.
Generally what I do is:
check for signage stating no photography
check for cameras near by, if I see any I don’t risk taking a photo
turn off the flash which I forgot to do in the Chinese restaurant
set the time delay so it’s a bit less obvious
try to make it look like I’m checking an email/Facebook/text if possible, again trying not to be too obvious (hard to do with cieling mount devices)
If I see a security guard I don’t risk taking a photo
Sometimes I try to sweet talk/bribe my wife into posing near by a device/panel like I was taking her pic with little success (10% success rate).
I always have the flash off on my phone. There were surveillance cameras in the building, but I didn’t think too much about it since I’ve been in numerous other places with surveillance cameras taking pictures, yet I was never followed nor questioned. There was no explicit signage anywhere in the building prohibiting the use of cameras, but I understand why medical facilities would not want people using them.
Westland Mall is one place that doesn’t allow photography anywhere without permission from security.
Generally speaking, if you are standing on “public property” you can take pictures of whatever you want. Public property is considered places such as the sidewalk, street, government owned public land (parks), and usually places open to the public like a mall or shopping center EXCEPT where the property owner has placed signage restricting photography. So yes, you can stand on the side of the road and take a picture of the nuclear power plant, just as long as you don’t enter their property! But if you are inside that shopping mall and they have signs posted restricting photography, you have essentially been “warned” and should not take any photos. If there are no signs posted but it is their policy, once someone catches you and asks you to stop, you need to stop. About the worst thing they can do is ask you to leave. You don’t have to explain yourself or give up personal information, even your name. They cannot forcibly remove you, confiscate your camera, threaten you, or make you delete the images. If you don’t comply with their request to leave the property, they can call the police and you could be charged with trespassing! But that’s about it.
Now, if you are an agent of the property owner, like an employee, volunteer, or contractor, you could have signed or agreed to something that stated you will not take any photographs or video while on the property. And violating that provision could have consequences. I’ve only been on a handful of places like that and usually it’s a manufacturing facility that doesn’t want trade secrets given out or financial offices that are concerned with someone copying someone’s personal information. I was even on a site once that they told us to not even look with our eyes at any computer screens! Of course, walking around, I couldn’t help to glance… But we take photos all the time of problems with the fire alarm or sprinkler system. If there is any question, I’ll ask if it’s OK and 9 time out of 10, there is not problem even if they restrict photography. As long as they know what you are taking a picture of.
Bottom line is it never hurts to ask. If you are in doubt, or even if there are signs, just approach someone in charge and ask if you can take a picture. As long as you have their permission, they shouldn’t give you a hard time about it.
Kevtistic - the security guard really took it too far. You were still a member of the public at that point - unless you were in fact hired as a volunteer at that time and signed a HIPPA document. All he had the right to do is ask you to stop taking pictures and ask you to leave. I have my own opinion on “security guards” and I’ll leave that at that! But yeah, he overstepped his authority.
7002t - the Chinese guy was probably worried you found a roach on the wall and going to report him to the health department!
I was told to provide limited personal information, most like due to the nature of this incident in which a patient’s right to privacy could have been violated. For the record, I did not record any sound clips–just take pictures–and I was making an earnest effort not to include anybody in those shots. I can understand, however, that security may have thought about this situation differently just based on looking at surveillance cameras.
I was hired as a volunteer, and this incident took place after the hiring process while waiting for a ride home. I am required to fill out paperwork to be turned back in on Thursday, so technically, I am not an actual volunteer of the facility yet. However, I did get a badge printed out after the interview I attended.
I take many photos of fire alarms in public places, but I usually, if possible, try and find a restroom or an area with little to no traffic to take photos of devices. I’ve probably taken photos in about 50 buildings, and i’ve never been caught. If i’m in a busy place, I usually hold off on taking photos. This happened once in a building with an old (and rare!) Standard system. I really wanted a photo of the old pull stations and horn/lights, which i’ve been told are extremely rare, but the building was too busy for me to find a place to get a photo.
It’s possible the security guard saw you getting your badge made then saw you a little later walking around taking pictures and got suspicious. But who knows! I’ve been approached by them before when I was checking something on the fire alarm system after they have been told we are working on the fire alarm system. Sometimes they get too excited when something out of the ordinary happens… But the chances of you being spotted on camera live is slim to none. I’ve seen the other end of those systems and they usually only have a handful of camera’s they actually pay attention to on a full sized screen, all the others are thumbnail size (think of your widescreen TV getting spit into 16 smaller pictures with two or three alike right next to eachother). And someone has to be looking the entire time. Usually they are fooling around on a computer, answering phones, checking facebook, worried about someone parked where they shouldn’t be, etc to watch all the cameras.
That sounds like a very unfortunate situation. I’ve taken many photos of fire alarm devices over the past few years and have never been approached by a security guard, but the possibility of that happening is always on my mind. Since I absolutely want to avoid such incidents, I typically try to evaluate the risk of being confronted for taking pictures in a particular type of facility: I avoid taking photos (or take them as discreetly as possible) in buildings such as shopping centres, transportation terminals, and federal government facilities, while I worry less about getting in trouble in places like restaurants, hotels, and museums. I can definitely understand the confusion in your case, as a hospital wouldn’t typically seem (to me, at least) like a place where this would pose a problem.
I am always cautious when in public property, and I rarely take pictures. If I do get pictures, I try to get permission first, and I try to get policy information. The problem is, though, that it is weird when a 14 year old fire alarm collector walks up to an adult and asks the photography policies.
I always thought the rule of thumb was “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission” when taking pictures. But then again, I shouldn’t be talking because I rarely take public pictures.
I hardly ever take pictures of alarms in buildings. Pull stations and N/As aren’t all that interesting to me I guess, I’m far more interested in the control systems behind them.
That being said, if I see interesting control panels out and about I’ll usually snap a picture. Very few places that I can think of around here even have security guards, and even fewer have guards on active patrols. So as its not right at the security desk where they’re sitting, I’m usually good to go.
Lambda–I’ve been around dozens of security cameras when taking pictures, yet nothing else really happened. If somebody was watching, they probably would have been more concerned that I was going to shoplift or something similar. If I had to explain myself, they may have been able to let it slide.
El Chupacabra–With so many potential security risks these days, I can understand that taking pictures in a transportation terminal or federal government facility would be dangerous, because it opens the risk for sensitive information to be compromised, or it gives other people ideas to possibly plan out and commit acts of violence. I probably wouldn’t take pictures in the first place, although I might see a sign first prohibiting photography on the property.
FACSsterlingordes–Yes, it is weird to the average person when a fire alarm enthusiast asks for permission to take pictures. I’ve been taking pictures around my area for long enough now that I really never worried all that much about about getting in trouble with security or some other authoritative figure. It would be kind of hard to explain why I was doing this and what the purpose of accomplishing this meant.
The Big Green–The security guard I spoke with let me go without further consequence, but since I am due to return to that facility tomorrow for a test reading, it’s possible that human resources or a legal department could pick up on the incident. The personal information I gave was written down and taken with the guard.
kcin556–I’ve come across plenty of modern alarm systems and devices, though I often still take pictures as a way for me to document what I find. The fascination for doing so goes as far back as when I first discovered this forum years ago. I wish I could buy more alarms for my collection, but I’m not currently in a position to do so due to personal matters.
In my personal opinion, photography is not a crime. There was nothing wrong with what you were doing, but it might have helped if you had explained to the guard what you were doing, even though you don’t have to. Security guards will try to intimidate you and get you to do what they want. You can gladly refuse to give them your personal information, and they don’t have any right to make you delete your pictures. As Lambda said, all they can do is ask you to leave the property and call the police if you don’t.
As it was my first time being confronted with a situation like this, the thought of explaining to the security guard what I was doing and why didn’t come to light, because I didn’t know how I would be able to effectively explain myself. I wasn’t about to lie to the security guard either when giving personal information, as that would have gotten me in more trouble.
I’ve been taking pictures of fire alarms in public for almost 10 years now, and have never had a situation like that before. When I take pictures, I usually do it when there’s nobody around, and if there is people, try to make it oblivious I’m taking one.
Whenever I find the opportunity to take a photo of an alarm, it’s best to make sure there’s no security watching or any other people around that would feel suspicious about something. Even if a place allows photography, I still use caution as people may not understand my interest in alarms, and may see it as something out of the ordinary. If the coast is clear, I will take a photo. If people are around, generally, I try to make it look like I’m taking a photo of something else to avoid any suspicion.
As for your situation, it may not have been the best idea to take those photos on the day of your interview, even if you’re at a place where photography is generally allowed. In a job interview, first impressions are super important. Due to the sensitive nature of what the HIPPA policy is protecting, you never know if this incident may have made a bad first impression on the interviewer, and may even jeopardize your volunteer job at some point. Considering that this happened after your interview, you were only taking pictures of the devices themselves (not of any patients and/or patient info), and you stopped upon request of the security guard, it doesn’t seem likely that this would have damaged your reputation too much. If this happened before your interview, this may be a different story. I don’t want to scare you, but this is real world stuff.
I’ve taken pictures where people have been around many times before, but nobody really called me out on it and just ignored what I was doing. As for the volunteer position, I did make an honest effort to take only pictures of the devices themselves. I was quite aware of HIPAA regulations for several months prior to my interview, but I never explicitly put thought into the photography of non-confidential information just for my personal happiness. I haven’t received any further notification since my encounter with that security guard.