Cerberus Pyrotronics IXL

Hi All!!

Long time guest, finally decided to join…

I’ve been interested in fire alarms since my Kindergarten year brought me face-to-face with a Simplex 4005 system that replaced a 4002. I fell in love with the nice dissonant chords the mixture of 2901-9838+4903-9101 and TrueAlerts produced (all in Continuous). Several elementary schools, two middle schools, and a high school later have exposed me to Silent Knight, Fire-Lite, Simplex, EST, and my favorite thus far, Cerberus Pyrotronics. My favorite school system is by far my second middle school, which originally had a Standard Electric Time SET7000 by Johnson Controls, however, a Fire-Lite MS5210-UD and a Cerberus Pyrotronics SXL-EX running a mixture of Wheelock 34s, 34Ts, AS-241575s, Gentex Commander 1s and 3s, System Sensor P2Rs, and two Cerberus Pyrotronics MC-S17-F horn/strobes.

Recently, I completed a study buddy project with a local Elementary School. They have a Cerberus Pyrotronics IXL system running CP MTS-15/75 horn/strobes (Wheelock MT-24-LSMs) on Continuous Horn. There is an Alphanumeric Annunciator (RAN) in the vestibule as well as one in the panel (LAN). There are also RemCon units in both administrators’ offices.

I had the pleasure of activating the system for a fire drill and fell in love with the simplicity and user-friendliness. It’s basically the precursor to the MXL-IQ with all of the user-friendly software/hardware design quirks of the Siemens FireFinder XLS. Imagine the capability of the MXL-IQ with a less cluttered interface. IMHO, It was easily 15 years ahead of it’s time.

After this experience, I’m determined to find one. HOWEVER, I’m hitting every dead end possible. Aside from some CZI modules and an INS-2 LAN retrofit kit, eBay is a literal ghost town. The Siemens dealer near me is also useless as they discard any systems they remove :? (even though I’m friends with one of the senior techs who installed a few IXLs). Does anyone have a clue as to where I can find one???

Also…

The data sheet I found on firealarmresources.com mentions the IXL programming software to be used with IBM computers. Is this software still accessible in any way? I can run an IBM emulator on my HP Pavilion to use it…

Thanks!

I may have a few old IXL manuals laying around but I’ve never actually seen one in the wild outside of empty back boxes and old field devices. Every one I know of was upgraded to an MXL at some point in time over the past 20 years with a special card that let the MXL use the old IXL devices. Those devices have stayed around forever but I’ve seen most of those go away in the past 5 years as well.

I couldn’t even tell you what one looked like.

Here is the link to the data spec sheet from FireAlarmResources.com

http://firealarmresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/9350.pdf

I’ve got no leads at the moment, but I’ll keep my eye out for one. I’ll definitely let you know if anything shows up.

Also, welcome to the forums! Glad to have you here as a registered user. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to send a message to me or any of the other Staff members. Thanks!

Thanks kcin556!!

I really REALLY like the 1990’s Cerberus Pyrotronics stuff. I know not everyone on here is a fan, but they are the ultimate system brand to me (especially considering the massive MXLV InteLink MultiPlex in the WTC Complex).

I must say that middle school (grades 7-8) opened my eyes to the reliability and effectiveness of Cerberus Pyrotronics equipment. The original system was a Standard Electric Time SET7000, but it was replaced by a SXL-EX, along with a Fire-Lite MS-5210UD to monitor the two extra zones (not sure why they couldn’t have just used a SZE-4X module :? ). The MS-5210UD was less-than-reliable to put it nicely; it would go into Trouble at least once a week and occasionally the horn circuits it drives would randomly blast for about 15 seconds (mostly leftover Wheelock 34/34T horns from the SET7000 and some electronic signals in the Mobile Units, all on Continuous FWR power :shock: ). The SXL-EX never glitched once, and the few signals it drives (two MC-S17-F horn/strobes and some weatherproof Wheelock AH4 horns) always sounded when needed, and never out of turn. This, for me, was the experience I needed to form my opinion of Cerberus Pyrotronics.

Hopefully a nice IXL will show up soon!

I actually own a Siemens SXL-EX panel :smiley: . I totally agree, 100% reliability, and very easy to use. Although a newer panel, it retains that “tank” feeling of the old System 3 series in a way.

kcin556,

You are absolutely right about the SXL-EX. It has the System 3 build quality in a smaller, less expandable package.

That MS-5210UD, however, is a piece of work. Never in my life have I seen a system remotely as weird as that thing. I have no idea what would make the NACs blast randomly. It was definitely the on-board NACs, as the FWR was very obvious to the ear. I know that NAC boosters give filtered DC, as does the SXL-EX. It also made for some interesting “fire drills”, as the 34/34Ts would start sawing through the walls, but we would realize it was a glitch when the alarms would just stop after 10-15 seconds and an announcement would be made to let us now that “the fire alarms are messing up again”. It was especially annoying during lunch :smiley: .

The system is still active, however, the SXL-EX is gone, and everything is wired in to the MS-5210UD. The school system has a contract with our local Fire-Lite distributor, so I assume they didn’t want to bother with the SXL-EX or couldn’t change the programming (they renovated the media center and cafeteria). The MS-5210UD is fixed, but the system otherwise is unchanged. So much for the more reliable of the two :roll: .

To be honest, I would not recommend getting an IXL or an MXL. Here’s what the problem is.

the IXL panel is also known as the Gamewell IdentiFire INS-2, exactly the same panel (except for the brand change) as the one that used to be installed in my high school.

The way the SLC loop works on the IXL/INS-2 and an even earlier Cerberus addressable panel whose model I can’t think of is rather stupid compared to modern SLC loops. They were really well behind other panels, including the MXL, when these panels were made (Early to mid 90s) because other brands like Notifier, Simplex, EST (at the time known as FAST), and many other brands were using 2-wire analog addressable loops, which is basically how current-day SLC loops work, except for having been upgraded to run faster and support more devices.

Anyway, here is what the IXL does:

Every device on the loop requires four wires, two data wires and two power wires. The reason for this is because the IXL/INS-2 was designed to have a single big data bus, which gamewell called the “Network” which connected to EVERYTHING – Pulls, smokes, annunciators, remote power supplies, control modules, relays, etc. Now while this makes the system easier to install, it has one major flaw with its design that makes adding devices to the system or deleting devices from the system ridiculously complicated. The device addressing is done by the physical order the devices are installed. So unless you add the device to the very end of the loop, you have to relabel every single device after the point the new device was inserted.

Another thing is the IXL/INS-2 has some stability issues, the one installed in the high school was beginning to have random phantom troubles and sometimes a complete panel failure before it was replaced last year.

And lastly, finding devices for these panels is extremely difficult, potentially next to impossible. Just really not worth all of the hassle in the end, honestly. especially if you are a newer collector. I’d rate the IXL/INS-2 as a “5” on my collector friendliness scale.

So now, the MXL panel. I do not think you can program them from the front panel, and they’re real difficult panels to work with. Again I do not recommend getting one for your collection, it’ll just end up being a pain in the neck for you in the end as well. MXL panels are also extremely fragile. Making a small mistake will cause it to fail.

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but I make these posts so collectors do not spend huge amounts of money on something that ends up being totally useless.

NewAgeServer,

I can’t speak for all of the Cerberus Pyrotronics equipment throughout the world, but the systems I have seen/been around have been amazingly reliable. 15 schools in our district have Cerberus Pyrotronics systems, mostly IXLs, along with an MXL at our largest high school (1500 kids), a Siemens FireFinder XLS at our largest middle school (1200 kids) and the SXL-EX formerly installed in my middle school. All of them, save the

However, I chose not to mention the following in my previous posts, but here we go. My high school is the newest in the district, opened in 2009 at the start of the 2009-2010 school year. The original Silent Knight IFP-2000 system is already having serious issues at only 7 years old. The SpectrAlert Advances no longer stay in sync; the sync protocol cuts out after about 30 seconds. Also, the last few drills of last year and the first drill of this year, either the signals haven’t sounded or the door holders haven’t released. This has become the “normal” for us. The issues have apparently gotten bad enough that Siemens Fire Safety techs were touring the building last Wednesday, so the district might be looking at returning to Siemens. All of our Honeywell stuff isn’t holding up nearly as well as our Siemens/Cerberus Pyrotronics equipment (I still have no clue why the SXL-EX disappeared).

I do find the “megabus” data system weird. That, in my opinion, is the one drawback to the IXL, INS-2, and XL3 (the OLD addressable Pyrotronics system that used the “X” series devices). I also know from my acquaintances at our Siemens distributor that as long as I have the software and the appropriate manuals, I should be able to program the system to my liking. Apparently, IXLs and MXLs had a storage space in the cabinet to store the floppy disk (and I have access to a computer that can read floppy disks and possibly convert to a CD-R or memory stick). There’s an MXL-IQ on eBay that has said floppy disc pictured in the cabinet. I also could run an emulator on my current PC (Windows 8) to run the OLD IBM stuff for an IXL.

Okay, I have no earthly idea why there’s an Emoji next to the word Windows.

I meant Windows 8 to run the emulator for the IXL.

Also, I have no issue with Honeywell stuff. Our district just hasn’t had a good experience with their stuff and that’s by far the most experience I’ve had around them.

I know Cerberus Pyrotronics is “different” (and proprietary), but I still love the brand and their products. I still hope to find a nice IXL (but an MXL or MXL-IQ will do).

MXL was so far ahead of it’s time it’s amazing (it was basically an iphone when almost all other fire alarm panels were still flip phones), but newageserver is right that you won’t be able to program it. It requires a proprietary software that runs on dos, with a license that expires every few years. The license also ties the panel to it, so if you have the wrong license you can’t go program random mxl panels (but you can wipe them out and start over). This was to help installers protect their systems so they could keep proper documentation on them instead of having random people coming in and unknowingly adding onto it or messing with it.

Since the MXL will no longer be manufactured after 2018 most are being ripped out, it’s probably a good time to find them if you know where they are located but you’ll never be able to power the thing up and use it probably. Plenty of better demo panels out there, like the SXL or a firelite. we recycled a few pallet loads of old IXL devices removed from upgrade projects recently, plenty of stuff out there, it just doesn’t make it to collectors.

I agree with both Chris and Andrew. But, I also understand the desire to have a particular item, so I’ll still keep my eye out. Heck, I have tons of equipment I have no possibility of using. It’s still cool, and I’m still able to preserve it!

In the meantime, if you still want to mess around with some C/P equipment, along with Chris I highly recommend the SXL-EX. I would be happy to help you with programming and using the system, and there is currently an eBay listing with many available at decent prices here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131933822674.

Good luck!

Don’t forget that any kind of system will be very unreliable if it is not installed or programmed properly. We all like to make fun of one particular brand starting with “E” but if you install and program them to the manufacturer’s specs, even those systems will work extremely reliably.

As for the Silent Knight panel you mentioned, it sounds as if the panel wasn’t installed properly because what you described should not happen under normal conditions. I’ve never really been a big fan of Silent Knight - they make good enough systems but they’re just so awkward to use.

As for the MS-5210UD, My opinion is it is one of the most poorly designed panels that Fire-Lite has ever made in terms of user-friendliness and I am glad they’re not made anymore. As for the issue you mentioned, have you considered the possibility of bad wiring on a zone that causes the zone to be shorted randomly sometimes, putting the panel into alarm, and someone quickly silencing it?

Finally, a mistake I made last night in my post combined with what you said a moment ago is something I should bring up – don’t base the reliability of an entire product line off of a single or a couple examples of a system. Even though they’re horrible panels to operate, the MS-5210UD is quite a reliable panel in the end. This is based off my own experience inspecting at least 14 different systems that have one of those panels. Never found one with any serious problems.

And also, you mentioned lots of IXL panels still working perfectly fine in your schools, and I mentioned the one that was in my high school failing hard. Well, the company that installed it 21 years ago is also the same company that replaced it with a new EST3 system. I guess some things never changed as most of the EST system that they install end up failing in really weird ways, even for EST. Clearly it means they are cutting corners and not bothering to properly install those systems and I bet that is what happened with the INS-2 that was in the high school.

NewAgeServer,

I have considered the possibility of a faulted zone, but one there’s one thing that raises a question.

Several times, I was in the part of the building that has signals controlled by the SXL-EX when this weird fault would occur. The MS-5210UD and SXL-EX were slaved to each other as both monitored initiating devices. The signals connected to the SXL-EX wouldn’t sound, but we could hear the 34Ts in the adjoining “wings” (buildings connected by roof) sounding. If it was a bad zone, both panels would have energized the NACs.

Here’s a basic description of the school, which opened fully in October 1977 to replace the OLD (1930s) middle/Junior High school (grades 5-8). The move was phased in slowly at the beginning of the 1977-1978 year, with 8th grade moving into the 300 building in late September, then 7th moved into the 200 building, followed by 6th into the 100 building, and the PE and electives into the Gym and 400 Building during the first two weeks of October. The consolidated 5th grades were then split back to their respective 3 elementary schools (now 5).

There are 3 Academic Buildings (100/6th grade, 200/7th grade, 300/8th grade–) and the cafeteria/gymnasium/electives (400) building (which is in three separate sections-no interior connections between), all of which which surround the office/media center and commons area. These buildings are connected by one common roof (and yes, it was built this way originally). The original Mobile Units showed up around 1990 and there are now 6 Mobile Units in service there. The 6th grade was relocated in 1996 to what was left of the old Junior High (as the majority was demolished in 1981) to alleviate overcrowding and this arrangement remains in use.

Originally a Standard Electric Time by Johnson Controls SET7000 fire alarm system was installed. Pull stations were JC SFA-10-3 models, and I assume there were probably Chemtronics heat sensors, but there are now mostly System Sensor “doorknob” smokes (1451?) and some Cerberus Pyrotronics DI-3s. Signals were originally all gray Wheelock 34 horns, two of which are flush mount with double-projectors :shock:. There are currently a LOT of red 34T horns and at least one Wheelock AS-241575FR along with the CP MC-S17-Fs and exterior Wheelock AH-4 horns. The panel has obviously been replaced in at least two forms, and all of the JC pulls were replaced with RSG T-Bars somewhere around the late 1990s. There is only one NAC booster which is in the gym, and I’ve never seen it. I know because the 34Ts are running on Filtered DC and not FWR. I’ve heard them since the SXL-EX was removed and it controlled the gym devices. All interior signals sound in continuous. As for the mobile units, the electronic signals are definitely running on FWR, so they must be powered by the MS-5210UD. There also is no unified signal brand for the MUs, so there is a mix of Gentex and System Sensor signals, all in self-temporal, no sync :!: .

Jeez, that was intense…

If there’s a logical explanation for a faulty zone only sounding one of two interconnected panels, someone please tell me!!

The MS-5210UD base model has two NACs and two programmable relays. They are not fixed alarm/trouble relays like most panels. Therefore you can specify in the panel’s programming what their function is. You can install a card that gives you two more programmable relays and two more NACs if you wanted to.

So here are some potential reasons alarming a zone on the panel did not trip the other panel.

  1. Bad programming, however Relay #1 defaults to alarm, according to the manual, so it’s unlikely someone changed it.
  2. Circuit between the SXL zone and 5210 relay is faulted, and the EOLR is not installed at the end of the line.
  3. The above, but caused by a lazy inspector forgetting to reconnect it after testing, if it were disconnected to prevent alarming both panels all the time.
  4. If #2 is true, the issue would not be discovered if they alarmed the SXL first for every fire drill.

However here are some counter-arguments to the above:

  1. A deliberately triggered alarm on the MS-5210UD system does trip the SXL-EX.
  2. The SXL-EX actually does goes in to trouble if the zone between it and the MS-5210UD is faulted.

NewAgeServer,

I was actually in the office on a teacher errand once when a fire drill was set to occur. The principal at the time was nice enough to let me sound the alarms. The SXL-EX’s drill switch was used to activate the drill. That sounded both panels, and the MS-5210UD simply followed the commands from the SXL-EX. When they pressed Reset, the MS-5210UD reset/deactivated automatically. I guess #2 works in this case, as Open Collector relays don’t really interact with the IDCs.

I get the impression that this issue was what prompted the removal of the SXL-EX. The physical configuration is…interesting. Both the MS-5210UD and SXL-EX were stuffed into the original SET7000 cabinet (which is HUGE…think Simplex 4100 with 3 bays). Now, there is a shiny new Silent Knight communicator panel where the SXL-EX used to be. The SXL-EX had Silent Knight dialer in its own cabinet (model 5129?) so it must have handled the monitoring. The battery cabinet (also huge and from the SET7000) is still in use for both the panel and dialer.

Gotta love that logic…weird communication issue, scrap one and keep the other! :lol:

The Drill switch on the SXL-EX only activates the NACs. The states of the alarm relay and open collector outputs are not affected.

trying to remember the MS-5210UD’s programming options

There is a zone type that is self-resetting on the 5210UD, however unlike the panel’s predecessor (Sensiscan 200) you can’t map it to one or more NACs that sound as long as the zone is active. Therefore, it looks like they are doing the following, also considering the fact that the SXL’s relays do not activate on a fire alarm.

They had wired a double pole relay to a NAC on the SXL.
On the first pair of contacts, they set it up to short a fire alarm zone on the MS-5210UD.
Then, they wired the second pair to short a zone programmed as type 9 – System Reset, which closes when the relay turns back off.

Now if they had wired an open collector output on the SXL to a zone on the MS-5210UD, that would explain the random false alarms, as you’ve got a “fight” between current from both panels, and the 5210UD may have thought the zone was shorted, once in a while. But by the fact that open collectors do not turn on when Drill is used refutes this point, unless they can be programmed to do that we just don’t know this.

Once again without seeing how exactly they wired this mess, it’s hard to tell what happened. We can only speculate.

NewAgeServer,

The wiring was a rat’s nest to put it nicely. I wouldn’t troubleshoot that mess if you put a gun to my head.

Also, I’m at the middle school now on an internship assignment. The dialer is not a Silent Knight, it’s an Altronix model of some kind. The cabinet also still has the SET7000 labeling on the glass and the battery cabinet still has the JC-SET logo on it! Fire alarm geek’s treasure trove! :smiley: