Owning an FACP

So I talked with my uncle who is a dealer and obtains products through ADI. He appearantly said that it wouldn’t be leagal for me to own an FACP by buying through him considering I’m underaged and not licensed. He could however give one to me as long as he registered it as a demo board panel with the company.

I’m a bit confused by what he means by this. I have never heard of this law before, and many fire alarm collectors own panels, perhaps some from companies like ADI. Does he mean I can’t legally claim it as a legitimate fire alarm system if I install it as a house system (which I am not planning to, by the way)?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no law or legal statue that prevents the private ownership of a fire alarm panel. Once legally purchased from a third party, it becomes your private property. For all intents and purposes it could be considered an electronic surplus item - just like old computers or telephone equipment. There are no laws against owning those items.

However, there is an obvious difference when it comes to a hobbyist purchasing a new control panel directly from a manufacturer or a distributor. The majority of these issues likely would not technically be legal issues - as there are no laws being broken simply by purchasing the product - but rather corporate policies or company bylaws that would be violated. For the sake of their own liability, these distributors usually restrict the sale of their products to those businesses or individuals who are authorized to install these products. That way, they avoid the risk of being held negligible should an unauthorized installation of their product result to or contribute towards any property damage or loss of life.

While simply purchasing the product may not cause legal issues, you are correct in that this is where laws may become involved and the legality of owning these systems comes into play. While we are not going to delve into the full discussion regarding the legal aspects of demonstration systems, installing a system in your home in a way that imitates or functions as a legitimate fire alarm system is frowned upon, to put it lightly, and has the potential to open up a host of legal liabilities and insurance issues should an emergency occur.

I should add that, although unlikely in this scenario, there is another slim possibility (and one that I myself have come across) where issues could arise, and that is a situation where the control units are technically leased by the distributor, rather than owned by the customer. I came across this once in a bank building that was being demolished. I purchased the salvage rights to the fire system components, but after a conversation with a local Fire Inspector we had to double-check the AES IntelliNet Transmitters that were installed within the facility to ensure that the units were not under lease from Tyco. Luckily those particular units were customer-owned, and therefore they could be legally included in my purchase of the building’s fire protection assets. However, if those units had been under lease from Tyco, it would have been illegal to claim private ownership of them. Again, this is unlikely in your current scenario, but it is something to look into if you come across other units in the field.

I’ve had some experiences with some dealers in Massachusetts and Rhode Island and it seems like the biggest concern besides liability is warranty and some exclusive dealer agreements (which is largely why purchasing from the manufacturer directly is not possible). And on top of that, most fire alarm distributors/dealers sell exclusively to licensed contractors and installers that have accounts with the supplier. When I attempted to have my Silent Knight 5808 repaired (since it was still covered by the 3-year warranty outlined in the manual), I reached out to 4 different suppliers before finding one in RI that was willing to take it, but they required me to place a credit card on file and basically open an account with them (this may have to do with very strict Fire Alarm codes in RI, but more on that later).

It’s most likely that your uncle, who obtains products through ADI, cannot just walk into the warehouse and write off a brand-new FACP without registering it in the inventory. If he registers it as “sold to a contractor,” he most definitely would have to include the business, contractor details, etc, for warranty and inventory purposes, but if he registers it as “demo board,” then there’s not as many details that he needs to include. I’d wager a guess that mostly, registration is for the company’s internal inventory audit.

From a liability standpoint, if you were to install the system as a life safety system, do the job wrong, and the system fails to detect (or worse, causes) a fire, and the inspector found the system was sold by ADI, that becomes potential liability for them for selling to someone unqualified to do the work. While I was bringing in my faulty 5808 to the distributor in RI, I was advised not to open the cabinet, remove the board, or even take the chassis out of the box, since even putting the key in the lock technically qualifies as “tampering” with life safety equipment and in RI this would be a FELONY. Obviously the employees were very professional and nobody threatened to lock me away for being a hobbyist (although none of them had ever heard of collecting fire alarms as a hobby before). But they warned me that in RI the fire alarm policy is very strict and that it was almost certainly illegal for me to use any fire alarm equipment even in my own house.

Sounds like its a good thing I don’t actually collect anything then because of how tight our laws are now. Even if it wasn’t, I live in an apartment so I couldn’t set anything off.

Also off-topic but lawmakers need to do something so it doesn’t take 14 years to build a frickin’ memorial.

They took 10 years to open the 9/11 memorial, and even then it was unfinished, so it doesn’t surprise me that 15 years later they haven’t started building the memorial for a pub in the middle of nowhere (not saying they don’t deserve it though). Are the 100 crosses still there or have they been removed/damaged/stolen already?

In case the OP doesn’t know: the past two posts referenced the Station Nightclub Fire, a devastating pub fire that happened back in 2003. We had <URL url="Station Nightclub Fire]a topic[/url] discussing it.
Have you considered other sources for your FACP, Downs? What panel were you hoping to acquire and how do you plan to set up your demo system?

The memorial has been built. I plan to go there one of these days when my life isn’t about worrying about finances. 9/11 I can understand since THOUSANDS of people were killed. The Station had 100 people die horribly and many left with life changing injuries. The reason for the delay is because the guy that owned the land wouldn’t sell up to the Memorial Committee for several years for some reason. At least there is a site now in time for the 15th anniversary coming up.

Back on topic: I would have thought that the easiest way to get a panel would be to try to get one online. Provided the prices are inflated horribly.

Quote from kcin556

I don’t think that is entirely correct. The only legal issues when it comes to having a fire alarm system in a home is whether or not it is registered with the local AHJ. In most cities it is illegal to have a Fire Alarm system installed that can summon the fire department or even operate without a permit, however they’re not going to knock on your door unless you get neighbors complaining. A lot of residential properties have fire alarm systems installed, just not with a Silent Knight or Simplex panels. Usually with a vista series, concord, or DMP .etc. however there is no legal distinction whatsoever. Houston Tx is a prime example of most cities.

https://www.houstonburglaralarmpermits.org/Citizen/City/Houston/ATB_Login.aspx

Residential properties are not subject to ADA requirements and only some of NFPA 70, 72 requirements. Kcin556 is correct when saying if the alarm system is installed by a dealer or purchased from a dealer and fails to detect a fire or breaks local laws, problems can arise but only if the AHJ (local fire Marshal) finds an issue with this. A common scenario is when Smoke Detectors are not installed properly or stock smoke detectors (the ones that came with the house) are disconnected. Not all cities are in agreement with this, some are OK with disconnecting them as long as the fire system smokes are installed in the house and some will have a freaking conniption.

Basically it all comes down to how chill your local fire marshal is. Commercial properties are another animal with 99% of local jurisdictions. So if you install a fire alarm system in your house, the only legal trouble you’ll 99% of the time run into is the fire alarm permit.

Thank you all for the answers! It seems like the issue is somewhat complicated and I might have to look into it more when I’m getting a panel in the future.

I’ve considered getting one off Amazon or eBay, and I was just going to put up a demonstration boards somewhere in my basement or room - nothing special except for some conduit or FPL if I could afford it. Since I don’t plan on setting one up in the near future, I haven’t decided on the panel or other specifics to it yet.

We have had this discussion countless times on this forum.

It does not matter whether or not you have “registered” a system with any governing body. If an improperly installed fire alarm system is found to have been present within a building after a fire or other emergency that resulted in a loss of life or property damage, then this raises the possibility for serious legal liabilities.

This is not to say that every home system installation will result a worst case scenario - not at all. In my personal opinion, there is VERY little chance that anything will occur legally if you decide to install some alarms in your house for fun. However, due to the presence of the aforementioned legal risks, it is the position of the forum that we do not recommend the unlicensed installation of fire alarm systems to serve as or to replace life safety systems by our members.

Hmm, I have never heard of that before. Not saying your wrong, just I have never heard of such a legal circumstance. Just saying, I better not have the fire marshal or city council knocking on my door if he/she doesn’t like me using a commercial FACP. Unlikely, but that just doesn’t sit well with me, considering this is a private residence and not a commercial building accessible by the general public.