Target remodel and fire alarms

The Target near me has been getting a remodel and this has affected the fire alarm system somewhat. The fitting room area was remodeled and there is no longer a visible Radionics pull station and panel in that area.

The last target remodel I saw was gutting one of the old ones they closed down in my city to something called the Rec Room. Its basically a video arcade for adults and has some really cool games. Its part of a mall, and they recently upgraded their system. They have new Edwards 439 10" bells, with EST Genesis strobes underneath each bell.

[quote=EdwardsFan post_id=81849 time=1538239007 user_id=85] They have new Edwards 439 10" bells, with EST Genesis strobes underneath each bell. [/quote]

That’s pretty wasteful, considering they could’ve just installed horn/strobes, and used half the amount of wire. Is this in Canada by any chance? They seem to have a weird obsession with bells.

Yeah its Canada and I believe their codes are a lot more different then ours in that they can use bells more than horns as long as there is a strobe somewhere near it I think.

Canada’s requirements for the placement of audible and visual devices are now basically the same as those of NFPA 72. Sure, you can install bells alongside remote strobes to get the required audible and visual coverage (in the US too), but there’s no reason to do that other than for the sake of having bells.

I guess bells are still the preferred signal there? It’s certainly a universally recognizable sound.

One of my nearby Target locations was recently remodeled, and got white ceiling-mounted System Sensor L-series horn/strobes and remote strobes. (First time I’ve seen those in person.) The old red wall-mounted Wheelock NS and RSS signals were still there when I went, but probably have been removed by now.

My Target kept it’s ceiling SpectrAlert horn/strobes and strobes with a few Advances here and there, however all the bathrooms and the optical section have L-Series devices. Not only that, but there were Gentex Commander 3 white horn/strobes with blue lenses signifying something. They were mounted on huge plates that said what they did but it wasn’t “DOOR ALARM”. Even though they are mounted near doors.

My local Target has red MT horns on the support beams and white RSS strobes on the ceiling. They had an NS horn/strobe on the wall by the bathrooms and red RSS strobes in the bathroom. The bathrooms are remodeled right now and the bathrooms are temporary located in a trailer outside. They’re not portapotties, but nicer bathrooms that have running water. My Target is getting new ceiling mount PA speakers to replace the old PA speakers mounted on the support beams and they are going to start playing music in the store.

OMG mine did too! All of the stores are.

[quote=idontwannaknow post_id=81866 time=1538366034 user_id=3956] Not only that, but there were Gentex Commander 3 white horn/strobes with blue lenses signifying something. They were mounted on huge plates that said what they did but it wasn’t “DOOR ALARM”. Even though they are mounted near doors. [/quote]

They are probably still emergency exit opening alarms. The Gentex Commander3 (with blue strobe and white or blue body, and set to Electromechanical Continuous High) seems to be very popular for that particular application.

Just a heads up, most newer installations actually use Wheelock HS horns (and HS4 horn strobes), which are basically Wheelock AH horns in the body (and with the strobe) of a Wheelock MT:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/safety/notification/products/life_safety_notification/audible_visual_appliances/horns/wheelock_series_hshorns.html
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/safety/notification/products/life_safety_notification/audible_visual_appliances/horns_strobes/wheelock_series_hs4hornstrobes.html

[quote=MayerFire post_id=81879 time=1538471160 user_id=3566] [quote=idontwannaknow post_id=81866 time=1538366034 user_id=3956] Not only that, but there were Gentex Commander 3 white horn/strobes with blue lenses signifying something. They were mounted on huge plates that said what they did but it wasn’t “DOOR ALARM”. Even though they are mounted near doors. [/quote]

They are probably still emergency exit opening alarms. The Gentex Commander3 (with blue strobe and white or blue body, and set to Electromechanical Continuous High) seems to be very popular for that particular application.

Just a heads up, most newer installations actually use Wheelock HS horns (and HS4 horn strobes), which are basically Wheelock AH horns in the body (and with the strobe) of a Wheelock MT:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/safety/notification/products/life_safety_notification/audible_visual_appliances/horns/wheelock_series_hshorns.html
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/safety/notification/products/life_safety_notification/audible_visual_appliances/horns_strobes/wheelock_series_hs4hornstrobes.html

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Sorry, I actually got the model wrong. They are red Wheelock NH horns located on the support beams at the local Target. I wasn’t thinking and mistakenly wrote MT as the model.

[quote=MayerFire post_id=81852 time=1538270958 user_id=3566] [quote=EdwardsFan post_id=81849 time=1538239007 user_id=85] They have new Edwards 439 10" bells, with EST Genesis strobes underneath each bell. [/quote]

That’s pretty wasteful, considering they could’ve just installed horn/strobes, and used half the amount of wire. Is this in Canada by any chance? They seem to have a weird obsession with bells.

[/quote]

We just don’t have the same codes as the US, you guys are way more advanced and ahead of us when it comes to fire alarms. We don’t require Visual devices in new systems, because we don’t follow the ADA act, unless the building occupancy or the building type is a certain type. I did an inspection in a brand new apartment building, which had mini horns throughout. Bells are still used in some new installations, although it’s pretty rare. But strobes? They are rare in Canada, I hardly see them when inspecting buildings.

I know that strobes are rare but I also kind of like the rules Canada uses because they don’t require replacing old devices unless they don’t work at all.

[quote="Simplex 4051" post_id=82064 time=1539968614 user_id=18] I know that strobes are rare but I also kind of like the rules Canada uses because they don't require replacing old devices unless they don't work at all. [/quote]

The US also doesn’t require replacing old devices if they still work, and even if one device fails, you can replace it with a device of equivalent specification (for example, if a horn-only appliance that sounds in continuous fails, you can replace it with a with a new horn-only appliance set to continuous). You only need to meet the current code if you’re replacing the whole system, it’s called grandfathering (note that this is in general, some AHJs may have different requirements).

I thought that when some devices fail on a system that they ALL have to be replaced or if the panel fails and needs to be replaced but not if its just upgraded. Since if the panel fails the new panel might not work with the old alarms. Or at least that is what it seems happens over here.

[quote="Simplex 4051" post_id=82070 time=1540014130 user_id=18]

I thought that when some devices fail on a system that they ALL have to be replaced or if the panel fails and needs to be replaced but not if its just upgraded. Since if the panel fails the new panel might not work with the old alarms. Or at least that is what it seems happens over here.

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I guess it depends on the AHJ, as well as the company upgrading the system.

Most Targets are set up like so (at least from what I’ve heard from techs and observed from Targets in my area):

MS-9200UDLS in mezzanine with 2x Altronix NAC boosters
2x Altronix NAC boosters near sprinkler riser on ground level
LCD-80F at front door, customer service desk, and changing rooms (at least in my area)
Ceiling classics/advances/L series

My local Target has mostly classics, two advances replacing dead NAs and L-series in renovated areas like optica and the restrooms. However its radionics so ha.

My Target just got a remodel and just got white L-series horn/strobes and remote strobes installed on the ceiling. The old red NH horns on the support beams and white RSS strobes on the ceiling are still there right now.

[quote=Housedays post_id=82157 time=1540815726 user_id=2894]

My Target just got a remodel and just got white L-series horn/strobes and remote strobes installed on the ceiling. The old red NH horns on the support beams and white RSS strobes on the ceiling are still there right now.

[/quote]

The old NAs are gone now. There are now open backboxes on the support beams and square holes on the ceiling tiles where the old alarms used to be.