Simplex 4004 Fire Panel

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Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:34 pm

I don't know what was connected to this panel when it was in service. There could have been relays connected to the general alarm outputs or the zone outputs. Those relays would have diodes across the coils to prevent back EMF from spiking the panel.

The best way to test the panel is to disconnect everything. Then put on the four resistors in my picture. That will give the true results on if the board is good or failed.
mikesta
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Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:01 pm

Retired STR-SG wrote:Terminal strip photo. To the left are two 10K for the NACs and to the right are two 6.8K for the IDCs. When I put this together I didn't have any 6.8K handy but I had lots of 3.3K. Two 3.3K in series is 6.6K which was close enough.

How do I completely reset a board. I looked through the manuals and am quite confused.
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Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:22 pm

mikesta wrote: How do I completely reset a board. I looked through the manuals and am quite confused.
To perform a routine reset you simply press the RESET button. You will have to Acknowledge the presence of abnormal conditions by using the ACK button before the system can be reset. Since each condition is Acknowledged individually, you will need to press this button multiple times until all conditions are acknowledged. The membrane keys on the 4004 can be finicky, so press hard and hold the button until the panel responds.

To perform a hard reset of the board, power cycle the panel as you have in the past. This will most likely cause the panel to restart in a normal condition as if it was just installed, until the troubles register again. However, some panels store alarm information in non-volatile memory and will continue to display the alarm after power has been restored. I believe the 4004 does not exhibit this behavior, but be aware.
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Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:22 pm

There is not a "master reset" or "return to factory default" procedure in a 4004.

Page 3-9 in the manual shows how a 4004 is delivered from the factory.

Be aware it also says>
The program switch is ignored if there are alarm conditions in the panel.

If your panel is going into alarm at power up with only the EOLRs connected you can try setting the PROG switch to ON before powering up the panel. However, if the panel is going into alarm at power up with only the EOLRs connected (numbers showing in the red LED display), the board is probably damaged.
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Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:59 pm

You guys are awesome... thanks, getting some resistors to duplicate what you have and will start from scratch. I want to dedicate 4 brain hours to this tonight.
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Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:57 pm

Retired STR-SG wrote:Terminal strip photo. To the left are two 10K for the NACs and to the right are two 6.8K for the IDCs. When I put this together I didn't have any 6.8K handy but I had lots of 3.3K. Two 3.3K in series is 6.6K which was close enough.
Okay, awesome, so I let the board power down for a few days now and bam, I put the 3.3k's and 10k's like you stated and BAM! I have the same panel. Now to figure out where all these wires go.
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Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:22 pm

mikesta wrote:
Retired STR-SG wrote:Terminal strip photo. To the left are two 10K for the NACs and to the right are two 6.8K for the IDCs. When I put this together I didn't have any 6.8K handy but I had lots of 3.3K. Two 3.3K in series is 6.6K which was close enough.
Okay, awesome, so I let the board power down for a few days now and bam, I put the 3.3k's and 10k's like you stated and BAM! I have the same panel. Now to figure out where all these wires go.
I recommend you reconnect the field wiring circuits one-by-one and check the panel for normal operation after each circuit is reconnected. That way, it will allow you narrow down which circuit, if any, are still causing problems.
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Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:54 pm

mikesta wrote:Okay, awesome, so I let the board power down for a few days now and bam, I put the 3.3k's and 10k's like you stated and BAM! I have the same panel. Now to figure out where all these wires go.
When you say you "have the same panel" does that that mean with just the end of line resistors connected you have a clear panel other than a battery trouble?

Did you test the panel in that condition to see if it works? Short across an IDC resistor and the panel should go into alarm and turn on the NACs. Ack, signal silence, and reset should work and return the panel to normal. Do all these functions work?

What do "all these wires" connect to on the other end?
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Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:40 pm

Retired STR-SG wrote:
mikesta wrote:Okay, awesome, so I let the board power down for a few days now and bam, I put the 3.3k's and 10k's like you stated and BAM! I have the same panel. Now to figure out where all these wires go.
When you say you "have the same panel" does that that mean with just the end of line resistors connected you have a clear panel other than a battery trouble?

Did you test the panel in that condition to see if it works? Short across an IDC resistor and the panel should go into alarm and turn on the NACs. Ack, signal silence, and reset should work and return the panel to normal. Do all these functions work?

What do "all these wires" connect to on the other end?
I duplicated your picture and have no trouble codes. I have (1) Pull stations... which I believe go to one of the NAC's and I also have the Alarm which I believe goes to the Other NAC. Then I have 2 Zones. I hook up both zones leaving the other stuff off and only zone one is alarming. Zone one is 8 rooms and the hallway. I also have a magnetic locking doorway which has very low voltage going to it because I think its in Alarm Mode. I guess I need to go through all the rooms and verify everything is hooked up right. Zone 2 has no problems.
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Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:23 pm

mikesta wrote:I duplicated your picture and have no trouble codes. I have (1) Pull stations... which I believe go to one of the NAC's and I also have the Alarm which I believe goes to the Other NAC. Then I have 2 Zones. I hook up both zones leaving the other stuff off and only zone one is alarming. Zone one is 8 rooms and the hallway. I also have a magnetic locking doorway which has very low voltage going to it because I think its in Alarm Mode. I guess I need to go through all the rooms and verify everything is hooked up right. Zone 2 has no problems.
Looks like progress s being made. I think you are mixing up some of the terms. Pull stations, smoke detectors, and other alarm making devices connect to Initiating Device Circuits (IDC) or called sometimes zones. NAC is short for Notification Appliance Circuit which is where the horns and strobes connect.

Check the area that is Zone 1 for stations that might be pulled or damaged. There also could be a smoke detector in alarm somewhere. Don't know what type pull stations you have. If they are the Simplex plastic T-bar stations these can be damaged if someone tries to stop an alarm after the station is pulled by pushing the T-bar back up. That either breaks off the plastic button on the switch inside or breaks the parts holding the T-bar in place.
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Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:23 pm

Again, you guys rock.

We figured it out. The termination points at the end of each run were terminated with too low of a resistor. We changed to higher resistor and it cleared both alarms. Now we just have the magnetic door wires to hook up.

We have 2 doors that have magnetic pulls on them
We also have a Mouser??? Potter and Brumfiled KHAU-17d1124 unit.

I had pictures of where stuff went, but my phone died and I got a replacement.

I have 2 black cables and 2 white cables coming off it. One of the white cables is going to a red cable which itself has a black cable next to it. So I don't know where to place these.

Any suggestions?
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Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:17 pm

That's great!

Let's take this next issue one step at a time.

I take it these are magnetic door holders that are used to keep doors open until there is an alarm and then release. Voltage is fed to the door holder magnetic coil continuously until there is an alarm. Then the fire alarm panel activates a relay to interrupt the power to the door holders. Then if all the door hardware is good, the door closes.

The number you posted is for a 24 volt DC relay. This is probably being used to control the power to the door holders.

Does it look like this?
KHU-17D11-24 relay.jpg
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Usually these are in sockets like this. Is yours?
27E894 socket.jpg
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Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:27 pm

Picure 3: Unit with wires that were on it when I got it in the exact location
Picture 2: Pins, the blue pinned white wire was attached to the Red (I believe)
Picture 1: The panel as it sits in perfect condition - No resistors on the panel
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Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:59 pm

OMG, what a nasty looking rig! That relay should be in a socket. Whoever did that was not a professional. Now I understand your question about diodes.

In the picture where you are holding the relay, the black wires are connected to the relay coil. The white wires are connected to a normally closed contact. To operate the relay on alarm one black wire connects to AUX+ and the other to AUX ALM (the 9th terminal). There has to be a diode across the relay coil to prevent it from spiking the panel. The white banded end of the diode goes to the positive. That can be connected at the terminal strip between the same terminals as the relay coil. Obviously the diode needs an extension wire on one end.

In the picture where you are holding the wires, do these go to the door holders? If so, one of them goes to AUX- (2nd terminal). The other connects to one of the white wires on the relay. The other white wire goes to AUX+ so the door holders get 24 volts that is switched through the normally closed contact on the relay. Depending on the age of the door holders they may need a diode across them too. That one connects across the wires leaving the panel to the door holders. Again, white band end goes to the positive.

One thing I notice is that NAC2 has nothing connected. In that condition it should show trouble. Does it?

I would draw a picture to upload but some parts of the internet are going so slow for me it would be difficult to upload.

Any questions?
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Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:03 pm

Excuse the extra post. I got a Gateway Timeout on the previous post and thought it was lost, but it made it.
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