Yeah, sometimes you have to deal with playing nicely alongside non-sync audibles for that matter (Edwards makes the only syncable industrial loud-horns I know of, the FedSig units and all the Eurostyle ones from Pfannenberg, e2s, etc don’t understand any sort of sync protocol at all).
Looking at the documentation again, I don’t think these devices are listed for FWR use (or 12V use, which isn’t surprising). Someone pointed this out on Reddit when the series was first announced, but we now have confirmation. FWR support and 12V support would also be a plausible reason for keeping the Commander2 remote horn around.
Another case of that? (at least if that’s true with the LED L-series as well) Sheesh…
Yeah, but what about applications needing a horn/strobe or remote strobe? If all you have to offer customers is an FWR/12V-capable horn you’re out of luck (honestly seems like Gentex way underengineered the Commander 5-series going by all these recent revelations).
We need to look at the speaker strobe ones too. And Shush the Sheesh! (davemadson joke)
4-wire is useful only in niche circumstances such as coding an agent release signal, retrofits, or as you said general signaling. 2-wire is objectively better for other applications due to the simplicity of wiring. Now back on topic…
Well so what? As I’ve said before if Gentex had simply kept their exclusive 2-wire/4-wire selectability feature on the Commander 5 one model of horn/strobe would suffice for every application, thus limiting the total amount of models they’d otherwise have to make (& of course giving their customers options). What if a longtime Gentex customer wanted to continue using their products since they know they’re of good quality but can’t because they will no longer offer a 4-wire product?
This is technically part of this topic since it concerns the Commander 5.
I 100% agree. Just because two wire devices are the way of the future doesn’t mean that they can’t have four wire functionality in the same device as well. Also, just because having a separate horn and strobe does technically work, doesn’t mean it’s a good solution at all. I find a similar problem with Wheelock’s discontinuation of their RSSP strobe plate with no replacement.
Any application requiring a vibrating bell and a strobe could be replaced with an ELMTS set to the bell tone, so that application isn’t a huge issue. The other main use of the RSSP was as a dual strobe expander plate, which might eventually be released as an Eluxa device.
Yeah…but what if you need an actual bell together with a strobe plate for whatever reason? (such as in Canada: you know they love their bells!)
Yeah, might & eventually: in the meantime though Wheelock customers are out of luck when it comes to strobe plates.
Nooo! Gentex! Why did you do make the Commander 5 so horrible!??! You were such a great company!
I take it that you have the panel properly set on Gentex Sync but that the Commander 5’s supposed incompatibleness with FWR is causing them to not work right anyway.
Commander 5s look kinda cheap ngl
They’re at least better-designed visually than some signals I’ve seen at least, though I do sorta have to agree with others in that maybe the center should have been the same color as the rest of the device after seeing someone’s edit of such (though to be fair having the center be a somewhat-“neutral” gray color does allow you to put whatever trim rings you want on it without the center color clashing, so maybe that’s why Gentex made it gray).
Yah – the lack of an Eluxa expander strobe is a major downside of the Eluxa product line, and not just for DOD stuff with separate MNS & FA strobes, either – expander strobes are very helpful for ADA-accessible hotels and apartments as they mean you can have one appliance stackup that handles the smoke alarm strobes and the main fire alarm notification.
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I don’t think smoke alarm strobes are required to be separate from fire alarm strobes. Since 520 Hz is required in all new hotels and the only 520 Hz single station smoke alarm option is the Gentex PLACE series (which doesn’t support strobes as far as I know), a single strobe for both local and general evacuation is the most efficient option since a system smoke detector is needed anyway.
That seems very unlikely; it would be like preparing for a situation where someone needed a DC mechanical horn for some reason and an electronic horn would not suffice.
Gentex customers are, as well. There’s no Commander5 strobe expander plate.
Yes, but expander plates are pretty much exclusively used for MNS-capable systems instead, as they allow you to have both alert & fire strobes on one device.
Some hotels have residential smoke detectors instead of commercial detectors with sounder bases however, & in those cases if the detector doesn’t have its own strobe there will be no visual warning for the occupants in the room.
Sure, very unlikely, but not impossible, & in most businesses it’s always good to give your customers options.
Yeah, all because they for whatever likely-dumb reason didn’t bother engineering one.
Residential smoke alarms (besides the Gentex PLACE ones, which don’t support strobes) don’t meet the 520 Hz requirement for smoke alarms, which was introduced in the 2021 edition of NFPA 1/101/5000 and IBC/IFC. System smoke detectors are the only way to meet this requirement.
I think there needs to be a balance between discontinuing outdated technology and having a proper set of options. Several things that have gone/are going obsolete despite having “possible” need include mechanical horns, ionization system smoke detectors, and xenon strobes, since they have all been replaced by equivalent devices that perform better. On the other hand, it doesn’t make sense to make things like 4-wire obsolete, since 2-wire is clearly less useful than 4-wire.
I was mainly referring to hotels that were originally built with residential detectors, which was likely before such a requirement was in place.
I guess I’m for that, but there are some manufacturers who still make mechanical horns (even if they’re for non-fire alarm service), & I see no real reason for strobe plates to go away either: you never know when you might need one for any number of reasons.
Dang right: no idea what Gentex’s executives &/or product designers were thinking when they eliminated their exclusive 2-wire/4-wire selection feature.
Might I ask why it seems like you’re always on the exact opposite side of anything any of us say? Can’t you be somewhat-optimistic like we’re being?
The PLACE supports the “new style” Gentex interconnect that was introduced in the 1209 series, so it’s interconnectable with recent/current “dumb” Gentex smoke and CO alarms, including their relay variants. So, one could have a Gentex SR in a non-sleeping space to provide the relay functionality to switch the strobe on with PLACE alarms in the sleeping areas.
As an aside, I personally really do not like the idea of using system smokes for in-unit detection/alarming in apartments, because then a failure with the FA panel would cause the loss of all early warning to all units. (This is less of an issue in hotels since the maintenance in them tends to be a bit tighter than that in the average apartment building.)
I imagine it has to do with low demand, as System Sensor also made ADA retrofit strobe plates in the 1990s, and releasing new strobe plates would require extensive testing for UL listing. On the other hand, I don’t think it would be nearly as difficult to just release a plate that can mount 2 Eluxa/Commander5 devices similar to the L-Series strobe expander plate that is actually just a standalone plate that a strobe can be attached to.
Another unique feature of the RSSP that no other manufacturer has had since the 1990s was the ability to use them with any device, not just devices of the same series. I imagine this was not very popular, or other companies would have also continued to produce this option.
Missing features in new devices do bug me (including 12V and FWR support for new strobes and even going back as far as the SpectrAlert Advance chime strobe being 2-wire despite the Classic being 4-wire), but I immediately try to think of ways around the loss of features in order to resolve this concern, and this tends to happen before the major discussion starts. This resolution has certainly led me to being pleasantly surprised at times; for example, I was expecting the AMT and SA-S series to be produced as non-strobe signals in the long term due to their limited application, so the Eluxa releases came as a surprise (although the lack of a white Eluxa AMT strobe still bugs me; my personal justification is that the grille on an ELAMTSTR can be replaced with a white ELGSPSTW replacement grille).
I did not know that. This could also allow FACPs to monitor PLACE smoke alarms.
Power supply is also a potential concern with system smokes, as someone who continuously activates their in-unit detector could theoretically drain the entire backup power supply during an AC loss. Now that I think about it, NFPA and ICC do allow the low frequency smoke alarm requirement to be achieved with a single station smoke alarm that is wired to activate an external notification appliance. This could achieve a balance where the low frequency sounder operates on FACP power when that is available, but if the FACP failed, the piezo horn would still operate on the smoke alarm’s battery power (although it does not address the possibility of someone intentionally draining the FACP power supply).