Maybe a little bit of both, & unlike most companies I’d probably try to “pick & choose” brands based off how good I think they are. For instance, I’d probably go with Gentex for their signals (& maybe smoke detectors too), while for panels I might go with most brands except Simplex (because of the latter’s proprietaryness), maybe even using all of them at once!
Go with Honeywell for your panels, pulls,and smoke/heat detectors
I just might actually, since most of the products Honeywell sells through the companies they own seem to be pretty good.
Yeah I’m starting to buy a lot of notifier stuff ( smoke/heat detectors and pull stations) and the quality is really good, speaking of notifier stuff I upgraded my collection post with some pictures of some new devices
i may make a fire alarm manufacturing company when i grow up a little but i did come up with a name (Usco) and my first model would be the U-01:
Too similar to the Wheelock 30-series of electromechanical horns if you ask me; you might wanna change the design, lest you risk getting sued by Wheelock. The strobe having “FIRE” lettering directly on the lens is also a no-no (as it obstructs the light the strobe produces).
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I agree with this, but most people here own and use FA systems for their homes, and for there hobby.
Yeah. Normally a locked door and a passcode is enough.
Exactly, which is why (among other reasons) I feel that Simplex & other companies making programming software available exclusively to technicians is not right (which is why my company most certainly wouldn’t).
“Using FA systems for their homes” is part of the problem honestly. Unless you are a tech or an engineer this stuff is not designed for you to mess with and is why you should not rely on a hobbyist-installed system to protect your home. I shouldn’t have to repeat myself, but I guess it bears repeating that fire alarm systems are NOT toys.
This is a stance that has been attacked before, but my professional opinion still remains that if one wants commercial fire alarm protection in their homes, they should hire professionals to design and install it for them, so that at the very least if anything goes wrong the liability is on them, not you.
Software being locked behind a dongle is by no means new nor morally unethical. For years, software like AutoCAD, Adobe, and even some games, required a special dongle to get the software to work. This is a form of digital rights management and is absolutely allowable - especially when the software’s terms and conditions specify who can and who cannot use the software.
In the case of Simplex’s or EST’s programming software, the intention is that ONLY Simplex or EST technicians should use it. In some cases, the software can control the panel it is connected to, which means that theoretically an entire system can be taken out of commission if the person behind the computer so desired.
The reason you can freely download PSTools and program Fire-Lite panels but you can’t do the same to Simplex panels, is because systems like Fire-Lite are designed to be over-the-counter and are sold directly to distributors to install, so the liability is put on the individual distributors.
Locked cabinets and passcodes help, but it’s easy enough to buy a fire alarm key online and guess passcodes since they often are not changed from the default. This has been a problem in the elevator community where some people have not only bought elevator keys, but also drop keys, effectively being able to disable or otherwise tamper with elevators. This is why TFP has a rule that states that passcodes are ONLY allowed to be shared privately, rather than plastered here publicly.
One would do well to remember that this hobby basically revolves around unauthorized and amateur installations of life safety equipment that only trained professionals are normally allowed to install or program. Installing them to a board to make noise with every now and then is one thing, but when you basically build an unlicensed system in your home and program it with software you found off the internet… let’s just say that if you tried that in a real building there would be lawsuits out the ass. There’s a reason there’s strict licensure and certifications involved when you’re dealing with life safety equipment.
While I respect the hell out of Andrew for introducing me and a lot of other people to this hobby, I really wish he had kept his system confined to a board because now it seems everyone wants to plaster their alarms all over the house.
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I guess that makes sense, but isn’t the majority of programming (adding points etc.) done from the main interface?
I agree with what you are saying. But I wish to chime in here.
When I refer to “panels” I mean the panels built by my company specifically.
For the partial proprietary system that I had mentioned earlier, there would be software for collectors, and for techs. The software made for collectors Cannot program Commissioned systems. This is because there are encrypted codes on the EEPROM of the chips on that panel, and the panel will reject programming if the software lacks to transmit these codes (The collector version does not send these codes). Technicians servicing the panels must require Certification to receive the Tech Software, so no collectors can obtain the programming codes unless they are also techs.
The panels Require the tech software to be commissioned or decommissioned, so have fun trying to decommission a panel that was pulled from the system without the company that serviced it decommissioned it prior. If a panel is commissioned and too many changes are made to the connected devices (Addressable) or too much programming has changed without authorization by the servicing company (Service code is not input to the panel), The panel Will lock out of programming but detection will remain active. (The only way to fix this is to contact the company that is contracted to service the panel. Running decommissioned panels in commissioned systems voids warranty and the panel cannot be commissioned by any company again. (Once panels are decommissioned, they cannot be recommissioned) (Unless it was a mistake, that is.)
To recap,
It will not take just keys and codes to program these panels that are planned, it requires the system to be commissioned by company who owns the contract to service the panel as well as the special encrypted codes from software that needs proof of certification to have.
On a similar note, if a system is decommissioned, or not yet commissioned, all 4 access levels will be passcode protected. However, on a designated program, a system can be commissioned, and level 3 and 4 need to be unlocked with a programmer. This same programmer can also decommission the system. I actually hadn’t thought about that before @anon32364091
It’s also worth noting that if for whatever reason a house system is installed by a hobbyist, NFPA 72 must be followed to a “T”
I never claimed it was a toy. Most people who install fire alarm systems are usually techs, what I have noticed in the FA community is a lot of the members do maintenance on fire alarms in real life. I can understand where you are coming from, however lots of enthusiasts like me have commercial systems installed because they are more reliable. I do agree, if you don’t have knowledge in FA systems, don’t mess with them. (My home system is tied into my Honeywell vista so it isn’t necessarily a fire panel.
With respect,
WheelockNS
Either that or they don’t solely rely on that system to protect their lives and property
Yea, I use the vista system because it is rated for home fire protection use, i just added a relay and a few NAs to make it a bit better.
Here are my thoughts on the proprietary/non-proprietary debacle.
First off: Making 2 versions of the panel introduces many unnecessary complexities. What happens when a building gets demolished or gutted and a hobbyist wants the panel?
Additionally, demonstration boards can also exist for training purposes, not just for hobbyist use.
Perhaps a better idea would be something like the April Fools’ Day joke that I made - where anyone can download the demo version of the programming software, which would have all functionality and work regardless of the panel’s history, but with some important stipulations:
- End-User License Agreement that prohibits (not just warns against) using the demo version for any actual life safety installation, irreversibly voids all warranties and regulatory certifications of any panel programmed using the demo version, and includes waiver of liability and assumption of risk arising out of any use of the panel.
Here’s an idea I came up with for such an agreement.
facplegal.pdf (39.3 KB) - Checkbox upon sending configuration to panel: “I declare under penalty of perjury that this system will not be used for life safety purposes.”
- Watermark throughout the programming software and/or a dialog when the software is opened so that users know that it is a demo version.
- Warning message on the panel itself, displayed during startup/reset. This would be mentioned in the manual so that code officials know what to look for during inspection.
Example below (if the panel has a full-size display):
Does anyone here care about typography? Let me know your thoughts on my choice of fonts.
Second off: What about just making this issue moot by making a non-proprietary system in the first place?
Non-proprietary panels (e.g. Fire-Lite) already exist and are extremely common, but these are generally oriented towards small buildings, not anything large or complicated, let alone a large campus-style facility. (at least for now, perhaps the Simplex Foundation Series will get expanded?)
This is an untapped potential for a market segment - a non-proprietary, campus-grade system. There are facilities in existence with unique security requirements that could interfere with letting a vendor or installer’s personnel on property.
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Nope, we program using Kidde systems, and I do all of my programming on the computer, and upload it to the panel afterwards. I mean you can program from the main interface, but it would be locked with a passcode, and it is far harder to do so, and mess up, than just using a laptop.
Oh my god that is badASS
I feel as though it is completely okay if you wish to install a commercial grade fire alarm system inside of your home as long as there is some sort of other system installed that is designed to protect your home/living quarters. An example could be a residential smoke alarm system. By no means should a commercial grade system, that is constantly being modified, being used as your main source of protection from a fire within your household. To me, it is fine if you have a demo system installed if there is another system present that is not being modified and always protecting the household.
On the topic of the enthusiast run company, I feel that liabilities are the biggest issue with the company. This could lead to major issues including loss or life and property damage. Nobody wants to be responsible for the cause of something like that and it could lead to the demise of the company.
Fire alarm installation and inspection companies most likely have a multi-year contract with a certain supplier binding them to installing and maintaining systems solely from that supplier. This would make it difficult to reach inspection companies that are willing to install your products even if they are 100% safe, work, and have features that are desirable and unique. You would likely have a very short window to make the deal and if the firm is still happy with their current supplier, there is a very little chance that they would want to switch to something new. If they did, they must re-train their employees, change how their inventory is set up, and other changes that would become nuisances to the inspection company during the switch to the enthusiast-based supplier/manufacturer.