I am very new to fire alarms, but have been in fire protection for a little over 5 years now (Kitchen Systems). Fire Alarms seem to be very hard to find basic information about online, and maybe these questions will help someone else who is searching for them. I know most people will say that you just need to go work for an alarm company and learn from them, I wish I had a fire alarm guy who I could talk with but I don’t, figured I would just give it a shot on here.
Just trying to learn more about them and how everything works, any help is appreciated!
In regards to commercial fire alarms:
[b]• How does an inspection generally work. For smaller systems, say maybe a restaurant, do you usually do a 100% test once a year?
• I once spoke with a Sprinkler tech, he mentioned that he sometimes would disconnect the NAC when testing his system, so the horns and strobes wouldn’t go off (I’m know this is not proper procedure). Is this a common thing for alarm companies to do once they see all NAC devices are working, would they then disconnect the NAC circuits to test the rest of the devices as not to disturb the customer? or is that a big no no?
• Usually during a Fire Marshal test, I see you guys use the smoke bombs for the HVAC shut down and smokes. When doing an inspection, doesn’t this create a nuisance for the customer?
• If a customer calls in and explains they wish to switch companies because they aren’t happy with their current FA company, what is the process?
• Do you tell the customer they have to request the lockout code from their current FA company and send them the request form to fill out? (Depending on the state I guess)
• When you go in after another company has been inspecting the FA system, do you basically have to download the programming to see all the devices and try to figure out where they are so you can make sure you are not missing any?
• If it is a propriety system, is there nothing you can do for them? Are they just stuck with their current company or do they have to call around until they find someone else who is a distributor?
• When there is a system covering a strip center with multiple suites, are all of the suites basically required to use the same company for their inspection? Is there ever a case where more than one FA company would service a system?
• For installs, what is the general process? Do you run the cable first and leave plenty extra incase a device needs to move? Then back boxes go up when construction has moved forward?
• What information usually needs to be communicated with the contractor to make sure there are no issues, before you begin an install? [/b]
I think that is all for now. I appreciate anyone’s input. I know that you guys probably don’t ever need to know much about kitchen suppression, but if you ever have any questions feel free to ask. Thanks!
I assume you have a copy of the NFPA 72, if not you can sign up for an account and access it online at nfpa.org. In chapter 14 of the more recent versions there’s a massive table you should get very familiar with, it basically lists all the different parts of a fire alarm system and tells what parts need to be tested, how often it needs to be tested, and what method to use for testing. Basically an annual test covers everything though.
It’s very common to bypass the NAC’s when testing. At the annual test you need to verify all of the NAC’s work, after that you can bypass them and test all your initiating devices which may take all day, or days or even weeks depending on the size of the system.
I rarely if ever see the smoke bombs used anymore for inspections, you must live in a fun area! This might have been a smoke control system test, or something else. If these are used and the system is working properly, all of the smoke dampers should close anyways and when the test is complete they should be able to exhaust 100% of the air to the outside. Whenever something is a nuisance to the customer though, it’s done before or after hours, or on the weekends. Some places require audible testing to be done before hours for example, so you might show up at 5am. Others opt for after hours, so you might not show up until 10pm…
Well if you’re just doing an inspection, there isn’t really a process. It really depends on the system and how well you or the other techs know it, if you know how to reset the control panel though then pretty much anyone can do an inspection. If you want to modify the system, then it depends on what system it is. Some require a license specific to the installer, so you may have to put in a new system, or a new head end. If you’re a vendor for the manufacturer of the system and someone else installed it, you might be able to call the factory and get access, but it’s usually not likely. If it’s not a protected system and you’re trained on it then you can do whatever you want to it, probably voids the last contractors warranty if there was one though.
I’m not sure what you mean by lockout code. If you need something from another FA company, the customer will be the one that needs to get it for you. Another company isn’t allowed to send customer information to a third party, they can only send it to the customer, who can then turn around and give it to the third party.
Again, this depends on the system. If it’s an EST system for example, you can’t download the program, you have to start over from scratch (and you have to be a dealer, have a programming dongle, etc.). Hopefully the owner of the system has the previous reports and the building plans showing all of the devices, or has some type of point list.
It’s easiest for them to find someone else who is a distributor, especially if they want to modify for the system. Just for inspections though, anyone can take that over, the customer should have all of the documentation on their fire alarm system on site, and if they don’t they can easily request it from their current vendor without any hassles, especially the floor plans and previous inspection reports. We inspect systems we aren’t able to work on, but we sub contract out the work to a vendor who can work on it whenever the need arises. We may buy parts, install them, and then have another company come out and program it.
Depends on how the system is set up, but their can easily be any number of companies servicing different parts of it. We have locations where there’s a system for the back of house that monitors local panels in each suite, in which case each suite has a dedicated FA system they can have anyone service, and then someone else can service the building system that’s monitoring all of those independent systems. We have other systems where one FA system covers all the suites. It really depends on the landlord/tenant agreement more than anything, in the first scenario the tenants might be responsible for their own suite and the landlord for the main building system. If the landlord is in charge of everything then they’ll usually just have one system for everything, which generally means one company for everything.
Usually the electricians will rough in the back boxes first so they are in before the drywall goes up. Next the wire is pulled in and usually coiled up and left hanging, once the drywall guys are done, the ceiling is installed, etc. the devices will be mounted and terminated on the back boxes.
Often times it’s back and forth, the installers might rough in a few areas, then they might pull in cable and install devices in while waiting on the drywallers to catch up. They tend to jump around too for no rhyme or reason, on large sites you might have everything installed and terminated in one area of the building while you’re waiting for walls to still be built in another part.
schedule is the main thing. need to know when walls are being put up and how much time you have before drywall goes in, as well as when they expect it to be completed. also need to know where your panels are going, for fire smoke dampers and ducts you need to make sure access hatches are cut in, and you need to know where your risers are going to be. you don’t want to miss your opportunity to rough in or you’ll be cutting drywall and doing a lot of fishing. you also don’t want to install your devices too early and have to replace them all after they get caked in drywall dust or paint.
fire alarm is usually the last thing installed, but it’s also the first thing they want completely finished because the building can’t get occupancy without the fire alarm system up and running. this can make things tricky, since you need to be on site and finishing when everyone else is, or soon after. you can’t just wait for the building to be built and for everyone to clear out before you go in and do your thing even though that’s the best time for you to do it, because the owners will be screaming wanting to move in and won’t be able too until you’re done.
they can move in if some walls still need to be painted, or some landscaping done, carpet installed, etc… the building automation guys can come back a month later and finish off their punch list items if they need too, the fire alarm holds up the whole show though. it’s the only thing that really needs to be 100% complete and operational, meanwhile all the other contractors can be sitting at 95%.
At a minimum, 100% testing of everything, regardless of the size, once a year. Some inspections may only take 30 minutes, I’ve had some take three or four weeks. I know of a site where there is a crew there year long just to inspect the fire alarm, it’s that big. Just depends on number of devices, accessibility of the building (prisons are fun; however long you think it will take - double it), how good or thorough the crew working the inspection can be, etc.
I’ve only come across this situation once. There is/was a jurisdiction around my area that required the fire marshal to be on site for any system testing. Most of them were cool. They would show up for the first quarter of the day, and once they realized you knew what you were doing, they would leave and say “call me if you have any major issues”. But they would always do the audible testing first then have us disconnect the horns. One newbie FM though he was going to he the “hotshot” and told us to leave the NACs up the entire time. He wanted to hear them go off for every device. This was a hotel, with about a 80% occupancy. About a half hour into the test when people were coming down yelling and screaming he decided he was satisfied and we could disconnect the NACs. What sounds good on paper doesn’t necessarily work out in the real world!
I always find it best to disable via programming. Hotkey, disable notification circuit via menu, etc. And I think ALL panels should be designed this way. Pulling wires can damage the wiring over time and pulling the wrong one can cause big problems. Testing and inspection is the norm in this industry. Time to make it simpler.
Never seen it done. I test duct detectors in one of three ways: Accessible - pop the cover and blow in smoke. Inaccessible but can visually see it - magnet test (if reachable by a pole). Can’t get eyes on it (or out of reach with pole or normal ladders) - keyswitch. Work smarter, not harder! There are some that can only be tested with smoke (looking at you EST) and the keyswitch only simulates fan shutdown. Those inaccessible ones don’t get tested.
We just don’t go back. Inspections are either contract or T&M. 95% of the time it’s due to cost. I’ve been on some sites for three different companies (whoever I was working for at the time) and they welcome me back with open arms. Unless you royally fudge up and you’ve been banned from the site! I know a couple of guys in that situation.
There’s only a couple of companies that do this. We let the customer battle that out.
Some panels are easy to read. Notifier, Firelite, Simplex, Siemens - you can go into the menus and “read” the points. Some are a little trickier - EST for example, I’ve been successful in pulling the addressable loop and waiting for everything to go into trouble. The caveat to that is you could put the panel into the dreaded “map fault” error. If you’re lucky, the customer has as-built prints on site! But I think some of the fun is finding the stuff first.
Testing and inspection can be done by anyone. Replacing “dumb” devices like strobes, batteries, etc can be done my anyone. Programming or swapping out addressable devices sometimes needs to be done by the propriety company. But even then, if someone left that propriety company and has the means…
For the most part, there is one fire alarm system for the entire building. And because it’s part of the building, tenants must provide access for the alarm company to test and service the system. Sometimes you will run into older shopping centers that had no alarms and the dialysis clinic put in their own alarm and the bank put in their own alarm. The responsibility for those systems fall on the tenants.
I have come across where a national retailer has a national fire alarm company contract out their inspections locally. And because they really don’t have their stuff together, they call two companies out to do the inspection. We will go to a site where ABC Fire Alarms just inspected the place four months ago. Call the account rep and they tell us to reinspect it anyway. Michael’s and Bed Bath and Beyond are notorious for this.
The devices are already located on the prints. Some things like duct detectors you might leave a coil of wire until the device is actually installed but for anything else you know where it’s going to be. If they want to change the location later, put in a junction box if needed and relocate. But that’s why I like doing retrofits. You run the wire, cut in the box, wire and mount the device at the same time. Done!
Responding to the test switch comment about EST - Hi five brother!
If only everyone knew that a SIGA-DTS (which stands for duct test station) is basically a CT1 with a key switch and an led… Literally doesn’t connect to the duct detector AT ALL! The SIGA-SD units to have the TRK test switches that wire to the detector, though. Those also have a magnet spot.
Also in response to the map fault comment - another high five… I should start a thread and post everytime I have a call to fix a map fault. It’d make you guys head spin.
How many detectors can still be tested using magnets? I never thought the magnet test was a good way to functionally test a detector anyways, smoke is the only real way.
I think most test switches these days are purely electronic and don’t actually do any sort of functional test outside of closing the relay on a duct housing. I think there’s a huuuuge misconception in the fire alarm community about what remote test switches actually do, in my opinion they should just be eliminated.
Notifier, Simplex, some System Sensor detectors can still be magnet tested. Some test switch stations are magnet test. Then of course the System Sensor ducts have that “valley”. I usually reserve magnet testing for last resort or special circumstances. Go into an office and start blowing smoke everywhere and you always get that one idiot freaking out over what you are spraying. Healthcare too. I do agree, it’s not really a functional test. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do. We did a school that had 70 duct detectors, all in the ceiling, at least 12’ up from the grid. No remote test switches. Short of a lift and dismanteling the ceiling, they were getting magnet tested. RTS’s are fine because you really need to know if there is a concealed device in the area. Maybe something in the code where it must be within 20’ of the device? Hopefully the wiring will trace back to the location.