Opinions on Dedicated FACPs vs. Combination Systems

Fire Alarm General Discussion
1

Hey everyone!

I wanted to see what the general consensus on buildings having dedicated fire alarm panels versus situations where the fire system is controlled by a combination fire/security panel, especially from our industry professionals.

In my opinion, the merits of a combination system nearly seem to outweigh those of traditional FACPs in an industrial setting. The ability to control facility access, monitor building systems, and operate the fire alarm system from one familiar (and often “friendly”) interface just seems to make more sense from a logistics standpoint.

However, I still feel that in residential and commercial locations, where the security system is more focused on burglary prevention than monitoring building systems, that the systems should remain distinctly separated.

What are your thoughts?

2

I think combo systems are good for residential applications, and separate systems for commercial. I do consider having the security system acting as a dialer for the FA system as two separate systems (plus, it’s only one monitoring bill that needs to be paid).

3

Well, for starters, I’m not aware of any system UL listed for commercial fire alarm and everything (or anything) else you mentioned. There’s plenty of burg panels listed for residential fire alarm, not so much for commercial. You’ll find a lot of the residential ones in small businesses, but those businesses aren’t technically required to have a fire alarm system so it doesn’t get looked at.

Secondly, you have to add equipment to control doors, hvac’s, etc. anyways, so having one panel do it all and having to UL list everything connected to that panel becomes cost prohibitive quickly. Not to mention making changes, going through relisting, etc. at the rate security moves just seems like a nightmare. I can’t think of a situation where I ever thought it would be nice to hook a card reader up to my FACP instead of my access control panel. On the other side I can’t ever think of a situation where I wanted to hook up a smoke detector to an access control system instead of the FACP. There are plenty of times when I wanted the building controls system to control the dampers though! We always end up doing it though, sometimes in parallel with the controls system, or sometimes we give them outputs telling them what we’re doing.

Third, anything connected to the system would require 24 hours/5 minutes battery backup. This becomes prohibitively expensive when you’re looking at large access control and building controls systems. It just makes more sense to have separate systems do all of these things.

And lastly, as for a common familiar interface, integration does exist. You can get a computer that at the very least monitors (but not always controls, again, you get into UL issues but it is possible) fire alarm systems. The same computer can also be hooked up to building controls, access control, cctv, etc. and be programmed to do things like tell the CCTV system to record a camera pointed at a pull station that was just pulled. The reality is, these situations are very few and far in between, but you can at least get a common interface. If the operator see’s a smoke alarm, they can pull up cameras in the area. If the operator see’s an air handler shut down, they can see there’s also a duct detector in alarm and know what’s going on. So to that extent, plenty of integration already exists but it’s a computer taking in information from different dedicated systems and putting it all into a common platform. turn off that PC and the dedicated fire alarm system should operate like nothing is wrong. the access control system should also operate like nothing is wrong. you may lose your cctv system, and even the controls system may go down depending on how it’s set up.

The advantage with dedicated systems is for security problems, you send out a security tech. For fire, a fire tech… you don’t want to pay the fee’s of a technician who is an expert at everything. The phrase “jack of all trades, master of none” comes to mind… there’s plenty of guys who do both fire and security, very few do hvac controls too. It’s just an entirely different world.

4

The system that came to mind when I was writing this post was a DMP XR-500 system installed in an outboard motor plant. It handled the building’s fire alarms, provided access control/security, and had supervisory points to monitor the boiler systems, chillers, and other HVAC equipment. It just monitored their trouble contacts, it had no part in actually controlling the equipment. Sorry if that came across misleading :oops:

Here’s a partial list of the points on the system as an example. (The system is no longer active).

I think they originally installed this as a Radionics system in 1995. So you’re saying this would no longer be acceptable nowadays?

5

It’s not installed in that application as an actual fire alarm system, and looking at the UL listings for that panel, it’s not listed for commercial fire alarms.

What you’re looking at is actually considered a sprinkler supervisory service, not a fire alarm system! The code gets confusing when you get into industrial/warehouse type facilities, often times a fire alarm isn’t required, especially if it’s a fully sprinkled building. What is required though is that the sprinkler system is monitored and this for some reason can be by any type of berg panel like a radionics. We’ve used bosch security panels, silent knights, etc. Where it gets really confusing, is I’ve had AHJ’s require a few horn strobes and smokes/heats on these systems too, but never like a full blown fire alarm system would require.

From the DMP XR-500 data sheet:
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Listed
UL Bank, Safe and Vault
UL Standard Line Security
UL Encrypted Line Security

Looking at your photo, it’s also rare to see Halon still installed anywhere. We have a few sites with it still but for the most part they’ve been yanked out and replaced. They stopped producing the stuff in the mid 90s iirc.

6

Thanks for the info! You’re spot on with the system: there were only 4 or 5 horns and one pull station, full sprinklers.

The Halon systems shown here were decommissioned in 1998. The one at point 701 was removed and tossed in a renovation, the system at point 801 was left for dead. I got most of this equipment pulled in 2013 directly before the building demolition, including the Halon system. That explains why I’ve got all this documentation.

7

My local HEB uses a Bosch Radionics addressable FACP, though I’m sure it’s somehow connected to the burglar alarm panel, even though I’ve never actually seen the panels in person. I imagine it’s so that the fire alarm system can be integrated into the security system, but I don’t know. Reminds me of the old Honeywell FS-90 series.

8

I have done a number of installations where I used a combination panel. The trick is keeping the fire alarm and security separate which is easy to do. Most higher end security panels come with at least 2 partitions 3 if you count the common lobby as a partition. Fire/Burg panels come with 2 partitions at the very least so all the fire alarm zones are programmed to partition 1 and all the burg zones are partition 2. Then you program your security keypad to partition 2 and your fire alarm keypad to partition 1 so they each only report the zones in the partition they are assigned to. Without getting long winded on this if your looking for a reason to use a combo system then small to mid sized buildings where you would have nothing more that monitoring the sprinkler system a combo system would work well. If there were retail spaces then you could sell the tenant a security system with their own keypad and monitoring all on the same panel and your system would still be UL listed. I would install a fire alarm system before a combo system but if the customer asks for it or I see a way to use one that would get me the job and still satisfy the requirement of the spec.

9

I think that combination systems are good for residential purposes but I absolutely hate them in commercial settings. In my opinion, the fire alarm system should be kept separate from the security system. One of the reasons I say this is that generally, when there is a combo system, it’s not very well done and I just don’t like them in general.

10

I personally view this on a case-by-case situation based on type and size of structure.

Single Family Residential: A combination burg and fire panel along the lines of a NetworX or Vista (or, in my case, Moose Z900) is more than adequate. Security sensors in all the usual places along with a few smoke detectors and an intelligent siren driver to cover both situations.

Multi-Family Residential: A full, addressable fire alarm system with A) smokes+sounder bases in each unit or B) 120VAC smokes in each unit that can trigger a supervisory alarm at the FACP. Full horn/strobe coverage in the common spaces with Low Frequency sounders in each unit. Self-contained, monitored burglary systems should be in each unit.

Small Single Tenant Commercial: Basically the same as residential but with a commercial grade combination panel and sprinklers or dry suppression. Think the commercial Honeywell Vista systems, or a Bosch Radionics combo panel. Full security coverage, full sprinkler or dry suppression coverage as needed, full smoke detection if no suppression is needed, and pull stations if required. Appropriate notification coverage, be it a combo siren driver or separate burg and fire NA’s.

Small-Moderate Multi-Tenant Commercial (think strip mall):
Fire Option A)A common, midsize addressable fire alarm system along the lines of a Notifier NFS-320 or Siemens Cerberus PRO FC922 that covers owner-exclusive spaces. Each tenant provides a dedicated, smaller system like a Fire-Lite MS-5UD or Siemens SXL-EX, or a commercial combo that is monitored by and connected to the main system. The tenant systems can trigger a fire alarm at the common FACP, which can then activate all of the other systems in the complex. Common sprinkler system throughout covered by the common FACP and common exterior signals run by said FACP.
Fire Option B) A larger-midsize, addressable system along the lines of a Notifier NFS2-640 or Siemens Cerberus PRO FC924 that covers the entire building. Full unified signal coverage in all spaces, full sprinkler or smoke sensor coverage, pull stations if needed, and remote annunciation as needed.
Security) All tenant spaces should have individual security systems that are either monitored by an owner-exclusive system or have the owner included as a mandatory contact on the monitoring company’s call list.

Large Single Tenant Commercial (Factories, Cinemas, etc): A dedicated large, addressable fire alarm system like a Simplex 4100ES or Notifier NFS2-3030 with all the usual peripherals thrown in and voice evac if needed. Dedicated large security panel like a DMP XR550 or similar with all the usual peripherals and whatever extra measures as needed.

Large Multi-Tenant Commercial (Shopping Malls, etc): A LARGE, dedicated system like the Siemens MXLV or FireFinder XLSV voice evac systems or a network platform along the lines of a Simplex 4100ES Multiplex or Notifier NFS2-3030 ONXYWorks Multiplex that covers all the main spaces and the tenant storefront spaces. Anchor stores will probably have their own systems, but they either need to be compatible with the main panel/multiplex platform or wired to trigger at least a Supervisory on the main system and to go into Alarm if the main system alarms. Security should function in the same manner as the strip mall setup–individual tenant systems that trigger the large, main security panel if they alarm.

Sorry for the essay…I’m just a bit particular when it comes to this issue :smiley: .