OK. I thought your original question was about clearing the trouble caused by not having a battery connected. The answer I gave was in that direction.
Understood, so… The answer to the question I asked about seeing the panel without the 120V applied using nothing more than a 12V 1A power supply is, what?
This was already answered. Hooking anything to the battery terminals when the panel has no power will likely damage the panel. You would need the primary source connected before you hook anything to it, and if you attempted to hook your power supply to it while plugged in, it would cause some serious problems to the panel and power supply.
In my opinion, you should learn a lot more about electricity before touching your panel with anything shorter than an 80ft pole. I would recommend reading this: <URL url="So you want to buy a FACP...]
I think my brain blew up… In fact, I’m technically already used to panels…
Take a chill pill. You are disrespecting some of the most experienced and intelligent people on this board. Retired STR-SG and the Fire Alarm Technicians know more about this stuff than any of us hobbyists combined! No need to cop an attitude when all we are trying to do is help you.
You obviously don’t understand some of the basic mechanics of how these systems work. Try reading the manuals for your system and others, you can learn a lot about how FACP systems work in general from these documents.
Well, I’ve already done that about 10 times, it’s just I can’t seem to understand how a DIALER would work if I don’t have an actual FACP… I’m just asking “How do I make an entire fire alarm system with a dialer as the main panel?” And no, I wasn’t disrespecting ANYONE… I also had to deal with being falsely accused of things at school, I had to deal with a lot of things at school that I don’t want to deal with at home, (I just woke up, btw…) The only thing I DONT understand is what am I doing wrong with my panel to make a fire alarm system using nothing more than a dialer?
A trickle charger continuously charges the battery at the same rate as it’s natural no load discharge rate. Overtime, this can damage the battery and shorten the life of it. When the battery is full, the trickle charger is still charging it just extremely slowly, but it picks up if the battery is drained a bit.
A float charger actually monitors the battery and shuts off when it gets to a certain voltage, then turns on again when it gets below a certain voltage. That threshold is known as the float voltage, which on a 12v battery is like 13.85 volts or something. So the float charger keeps a 12v battery charged to that rate, then shuts off, and when it falls far enough below that voltage it turns on again.
Trickle chargers are cheaper of course.
Now I know about chargers! Now, correct me if I’m wrong… Trickle chargers might damage and shorten its life, however… That hasn’t been proven yet, (unless there’s a story behind it, maybe a video… I don’t know, something…) so therefore, like, and yet, unlike radio (transceiver) batteries… It most likely doesn’t harm the battery, it just keeps the battery fully charged… I’m not being mean or anything, I’m just throwing in my $.02 to believe of something which I could be wrong about… So, please… Correct me if I’m wrong about ANYTHING, thank you.
You are wrong. What he means is, they might shorten the life of the battery under normal conditions. What you’re trying to do (power up a panel using only batteries) can, will, and has known to damage either the batteries, the charger, or the panel, and most likely will damage all three. In short, do not attempt to power up a panel using nothing but batteries, pure and simple. Get a power cord and do it right. I agree with Jack, consult the topics and documentation on panels before you even attempt to power one up. And lurk in these forums! I’ve learned so much from more experienced users. You’ll get there eventually, just don’t stop learning! All we ask is for you to do all of that first, so that you don’t cook your panel before you ever get to use it. Andrew (and plenty others) can attest to the fact that too many people have this “ready, fire, aim” mentality that can, at the very least, cook their panel, and at the very worst, burn their house down. We’re just trying to help, so there’s no need to snap and there’s no need to get frustrated.
Let’s just clear our minds, take a deep breath, and start from the beginning…
You have a Silent Knight 5104B panel and want to connect up a couple of fire alarm devices and make a working system, correct?
First thing we are going to assume, is that the panel you purchased is a working system (no damage) and defaulted program. If this is true, skip to the next paragraph. If the panel is damaged, either from a lightning strike or physical damage, you are going to have unresolvable problems and the panel is useless. If you received a panel that was previously programmed with central station information and whoever sold it to you did not default the system, powering it up the panel will immediately it try to call out to the central station and may cause an false dispatch to authorities. You do not want to connect the panel to telephone lines because of this. Because the panel cannot talk to the central station receiver, you will get a “failure to communicate” trouble. At this point you will need the 5230 keypad to access the program and default all values. There is no way around this and your system will not work correctly until you default the program.
So let’s assume you have this working system with a defaulted program. First thing you want to do is install the “End of Line Resistors” to all zone inputs - normally, you would also need to install an end of line resistor on the NAC output but this panel does not supervise this output. Second, you need to give the telephone “line in” connections voltage to fool the panel into thinking it is seeing a working phone line. You are not going to use the communicator portion, but by design, this panel is going to look for voltage and if it sees none, will go into trouble. Parallel 12V across both tip and ring of the TELCO 1 and 2 inputs - no connections to the HOUSE 1 & 2 outputs (you can pull 12VDC off the panel from terminals 6 & 7). Third, you need to give the panel 120VAC and power it up. Fourth, immediately after powering up the panel with 120VAC, connect a 12V 4.0AH lead acid battery to the battery connections. At this point you should have a working panel only with zero troubles. If you have any troubles, verify all resistors are the correct values and installed on the correct terminals, verify the battery is properly connected and is able to take a charge (load test the battery if necessary). At this point, with a NORMAL panel, you can connect smoke detectors, heat detectors, pull stations to the zone inputs and bells, horns, or strobes to the NAC output according the the specifications in the manual. Keep in mind all current loads, overloading the panel will cause undesired operation (see the manual for all current loads if necessary). You should now have a working system with initiating and notification devices.
You really need to follow and consult the manual for all specifications - don’t go outside of any specification, like connecting a 9V battery to the battery terminals instead of the specified 12V battery. These panels are designed to operate under a very certain set of parameters set up by the manufacturer. Going outside of those parameters will generally cause a trouble or worse yet, destroy the panel. Below I illustrated connecting up the panel six different ways and what the outcome will be:
[attachment=0]FACP Troubles.jpg[/attachment]
Another thing to consider and keep in mind is that this panel is very limited. It is really designed to be a communicator only. But you can hook up a couple of devices and have a working system. I doubt it would be approved for use in a live building as such because of it’s limitations. It is a 12V panel (24V notification appliances would probably work for a demo use but would not operate the same as if they are given 24VDC) , there is no zone indication of alarm, and current loads are limited.
Fire alarm as a hobby is not cheap! Just a basic panel alone, used, would probably run you $150+. If you needed a keypad to operate or program the panel, add another $100. Smoke detectors around $50, pull stations around $20, batteries around $20 each (usually need two), and don’t forget about wire. So just to have a “working system with a couple of devices” you can say ballpark around $250 to start! I understand it’s not something you would want to hear but is the reality of the situation. You said you bought this panel for $70 - probably a good price. But if this panel is not getting you anywhere put it up for sale on ebay for the $70 you paid and start working on saving up for a better system.
We are truly trying to help you out here. Only you know what your level of expertise is with electronic and electrical devices. Plus you are dealing with several people on here, every one of us may be interpreting your question in a different way. Me, I have over 15 years dealing with this stuff, but even I don’t know everything and have to stop for a second, look something up, and do a little research every so often. If you feel you need to sit down and review some basic fundamentals of fire alarm system, do that. There are plenty of books out there that can help you out. And just be aware that even if you want something to work a particular way, it may just not happen! Not really anyone’s fault or someone trying to hold back information, it is just what it is!
I see, how 'bout this: I quit saying ANYTHING and not come back until I see a reason to come back (never) and hopefully things will be better for me… Which it won’t, so I may never come back… You may try and persuade me to come back, but until then, not coming back… Goodbye… Topic closed and marked as UNSOLVED until further notice!
Okay… takes deep breath let’s begin…
Yes.
Right… It works, aside from the bell and phone which, I don’t know if it works…
Already covered…
Y’never know when I might need to…
Not 5? Hmmm… Strange… Continue.
I don’t have a 12V 4AH battery…
I don’t have proper smoke detectors, no heat detectors, plus, no alarms rated at 12V .75mA, but I do have proper pull stations, I’ll give you that… So now I’m at square one to square 1.5…
Some notification appliances can still work properly on 12V… I learned this!
Yes, the panel cost $70, but I just want a panel that I can use for a small, residential fire alarm system… Yet I would need the 5230 touchpad, a relay rated at 12V, A power supply rated at 24V FILTERED DC (Yes, they do make power supplies that output FWR power) to supply power to the alarms, my pull stations, then I would be all set… Right?
Really? Then why haven’t I found any books about fire alarm systems?
Understood, and thanks for trying!
I don’t really don’t know what to make of this response, especially since you were specifically asking to be called out if you posted anything that was incorrect, which you did. Robert wasn’t trying to attack you, he was giving good advice that you seemed to disregard because it was contrary to what you thought. But once again, when you ask people to:
you can’t go off on them because they actually did correct you.
Throughout this thread, you’ve been incredibly defensive and difficult to work with even though you are the one seeking help. You’ve had numerous people spend their free time on responses for your benefit only to dispute what they’re saying because it’s not what you want to hear. But unfortunately, some things aren’t up for debate, such as the fact that the 5104B really can’t be used as a stand-alone fire alarm panel. Even so, if you still want help trying to make it work, we will still try to provide the support you need, but only if you cut it out with the unnecessary drama.
My suggestion, especially since it sounds like you don’t have many devices (especially alarms) is to focus more on the those and less on having a panel. What is the point of worrying about a panel if you don’t have any devices to use with it anyway? If you are able to obtain a few pulls and a few alarms, all you need to hook them up is something as simple as a transformer or a couple of 9V batteries. Hold off on having a panel until you can afford something that is actually designed to function as you want it to.
Where have I heard that before? Oh, right… I had to deal with that EXACT excuse my teachers would give me at school, I already have a terrible life as it is… I in fact already said:
“All I need is a 12V relay, my 24V alarms, a 24V power supply that outputs FILTERED DC ,(again, they do make power supply’s that output FWR power) then I just need to set up my entire system, and everything will be golden!”
Is there anything wrong with what I said?
(Late response) LOL!!! I hate it when that happens, you think you’re reading the right book, suddenly, you look at the title, then, something different! I just hate it when that happens…
If a lot of people are using that phrase on you, maybe it’s not an “excuse” people use against you and perhaps you should evaluate how you interact with other people, especially while seeking help…
Once again, we’re happy to provide help to you and answer questions - all I’m asking you to do is consider having a more professional approach when an answer to one of your questions frustrates you.
As for the 24V power supply, if you just plan on running your alarms straight off of that, it wouldn’t necessary need to be filtered DC. Most alarms that are ran off of FWR can also be ran off of “regular” DC power that something like 9V batteries or a 120 VAC to 24 VDC transformer would provide.
Well, that wouldn’t be a problem if: 1) I didn’t know which specific alarms (aside from all simplex strobes) don’t have FWR protection circuits, and 2) If I didn’t have a simplex strobe
[attachment=0]image.jpg[/attachment]
This strobe, model # 4904-9301 (Sync Strobe, sorry NewAgeServer, didn’t think this was a sync strobe until I looked it up on your model checker…)
To worry about hooking up to FWR power… Other than that, I’m sure that what you suggested, would be a great idea…
I’m a bit confused as to what you were trying to say in your last post about the Simplex strobe.
What I was trying to say was that if you were to get a FWR stand-alone power supply for your alarms, then you would have to worry about compatibility issues with alarms that are not designed to be powered with FWR, such as Simplex’s alarms.
However, with a non-FWR 24 VDC power supply (such as a couple of 9V batteries hooked up to each other), you would not need to be concerned about avoiding powering certain types of alarms with it since most “FWR” alarms can be powered with “regular” DC power as well.
But from what you are telling us, you do not wish to connect the panel to actual telephone lines at this time. So follow my advise here. And from a previous post, this panel is only able to dial into a central station receiver for any type of communication. So you would have to go through a licensed alarm company to set this panel up for any monitoring. And if you did that, they would certainly verify the telephone line connections, program the panel for central station communication, and fully test all signals a that time.
Terminal #5 is the Zone Input for Zone #2
Terminal #6 is +12VDC power
Terminal #7 is circuit ground
So yes, terminals 6 & 7 will give you raw 12V. You could also use terminals 23 & 24 if you wished. You can also verify this information by looking in section 3.10.3 in the manual - Four Wire Smoke Detector Connection - follow the connections for the smoke detector + and - connections. I haven’t tried it, but I’m sure if you connected 5 & 6 to the telephone connections you would probably get an alarm for zone #2.
Then you need to purchase one.
That should work. However, this panel is NOT UL Listed for residential fire alarm applications. From Silent Knights website: “UL listed as a fire communicator for connection to UL listed 24 VDC local fire alarm control panels or as a stand alone sprinkler supervisory control panel”. Ok for a hobby or demo system, not for your primary or only fire detection means in your home.
I just went to Amazon and searched “Fire Alarm” under Books. Several came up. And there is the obvious NFPA 72 - which I believe is available for free viewing on the NFPA web site. But I would suggest for you is to purchase the NFPA 72 “Handbook” - it has the same information as the NFPA 72 code book but they explain why certain things in the code are the way they are.
You are acting very condescending to other users. We aren’t all idiots, you know.