I will probably be asking a lot of questions for clarification on some things as I’m new to this area and there are a lot of special considerations.
what i am looking for this time is if there are any restrictions to using a junction box and terminal block to wire addressable detection devices. my thought is to come from the FACP to a JB and jumper to terminals to run the wires to the 3 different floors. so far all i have found is that it will need to comply with the NEC and all wiring/equipment needs to be 2 hour fire rated. are these the only considerations?
I see this done pretty often. However keep in mind that if your SLC Loop is Class A, the wiring going to each floor will need to return to your junction box using a different path from the cable going out. Also, keep in mind that Class A SLC Loops cannot be T-Tapped, unlike Class B SLC Loops, as this would nullify the whole point of the Class A circuit.
That is correct. The outgoing and return circuits must take separate paths. This is from NFPA 72, 2007 edition. You should know which edition of NFPA 72 your jurisdiction uses and go by that edition.
Additionally, what I would recommend you do is put an isolator module on each leg of the SLC loop that leaves your junction box. You don’t need one on the return path. That way if you get a fault on any of the three legs of the SLC, it’ll be isolated to that leg and the rest of the loop will continue to function.
I thought the whole idea of the class A circuit was for redundancy, so that if there is a fault the rest of the circuit functioned as normal. is this only true for aux power and not for communications?
Class “A” on an SLC operates as a Style 6 circuit. A Style 6 SLC maintains communications to all devices in case of a single open in the circuit. The isolator modules operate to isolate a section of the circuit with a shorted condition. That leaves the sections of the circuit that does not have the short in operation. Style 6 does not require operation with a single short condition. That is a Style 7 circuit.
Another item to watch in a Class A circuit is the wire length. An easy mistake to make is to make the circuit too long and increase the wire resistance above the rating for the panel and devices. Most SLC specifications include a maximum resistance spec of about 40 ohms total loop resistance. That is 20 ohms per leg which is right at 3,000 feet of #18 solid (6.5 ohms per 1K feet). Increasing the resistance above spec results in unreliable communications to the devices. When planning your wire runs be sure to keep up with the total distance.
Thank you for all this great information. I have been looking at fire alarm information for a week now non stop and there is a lot more to it than I initially thought. this is all really helpful for me. I had already considered wire length, it will be close but I should be OK. there are 3 floors, at 200 x 70 feet and the SLC basically runs a loop and “T’'s” off to each individual sensor (one conduit for to and from path per sensor). do you happen to know how i could get my hands on an installation manual for a simplex 4007ES panel? (preferably free) I E-mailed them Thursday and no response yet, and after hours of google searches i have about given up.
Simplex isn’t going to release their installation manuals to anybody.
Is this a new system you’re planning to put in? Keep in mind Simplex does not sell to ANYBODY… they do the installs and maintenance themselves. That’s how their business model works.
Yes its a brand new system/building. We have used simplex FACP’s before. Im not putting it in, im just getting together the information and drawings for it, and a contractor is going to install the system. maybe it would be in my best interest to look into other control panels.
The 4007 was released after I retired so my information is limited by what I can find on the internet. So far only the datasheets for 4007 are available to me. Once the product has been out for a while the manuals will be floating around in cyberspace.
As for obtaining the equipment. The branch I was working for sold about 90% or more of the equipment to electrical contractors. Your contractor should be able to obtain anything you want from SG. They also sell directly to end users. Our branch has a small install department for moves, adds, and changes. Large jobs always went through contractors.
well that is good new, almost thought my last 3 days worth of work were somewhat wasted. i really only want to see what the terminal block setup looks like and some more specific information about wiring the IDNET SLC. right now my interpretation is that there are 4 terminal blocks that come stock (+ and - in and out) for the loop, and you wire everything in parallel on that one circuit, and then back to the control panel? previously it looked like there were multiple zones (in conventional panels) that got wired on separate loops, but the ability for the detection devices to have an “IP adress” eliminates that and allows everything to be run on one loop?
In comparing the datasheets it appears that the 4007-9101 and 4007-9201 contain different power supply boards. The -9101 system has the power supply that drives conventional NACs. The -9201 system has the power supply that drives the addressable NACs. I don’t see an option to use non-addressable notification appliances on the -9201. It is meant for using addressable NAs.
It seems the 4007-9101 was meant to be more for the retrofit market to replace older panels that use conventional NACs where the wiring is not being replaced. The older less efficient NAs can be replaced with newer devices that draw less current (including SmartSync devices). It looks to me that the 4007-9201 is meant more for new installations where the advantages of addressable NAs can be used more easily. The IDNAC does recommend non-shielded twisted pair.
Keep in mind that the IDNet initiating devices and the IDNAC notification appliances are on separate circuits. If you go with the -9201 panel it looks to me that for Style Z (Class A) notification circuits that the 4007-9804 is needed. The Dual Class A IDNAC Isolator (DCAI); converts a single Class B IDNAC SLC input to two Class A or two Class B SLC outputs; provides short circuit isolation between each Class A or B output circuit; requires one IDNAC address; the total current remains controlled by the Class B input source SLC at 3 A maximum
Your local SimplexGrinnell office should be able to give you more details on these panels.
Good luck with that! They tend to hide their stuff better than even UTC. It’s not like the Honeywell brands where everything is laid out nice and neat on a single page.
Rfrye, Simplex normally engineers the systems they sell so you shouldn’t have to worry too much about this stuff. Contact your Simplex rep and ask them for the information you need, ask for a typical of the panel because you’re trying to figure out your wiring runs. What exactly are you trying to do? I don’t understand where you fit into the equation.
Typically you send the plans & spec to Simplex and they’ll send you a set of submittal drawings with all the equipment/datasheets/wiring details/riser/panel layouts etc. You can use that set to figure out your electrical needs and after you’ve installed it Simplex will send out a tech to program, test, and sign off on it.
Sorry for the delayed response, I was not expecting the thread to have any more replies so I have not checked it recently.
I am basically designing the the system to the point of wiring diagrams, detection/alarm placement, material lists, and general information. we will then give this information to a contractor and they will install the fire alarm system. I have little to no experience in fire alarms, my background is electrical engineering and most buildings that we work with are small enough to use a conventional system. this building is 70’ x 200’ with 24" I-beams on the ceiling and 24’ height to the ceiling with 3 floors. the building is not open and there are numerous cable trays and equipment ducting that needs to be considered in this.
sink or swim i guess. most likely the information that I come up with will be delivered to simplex or converted to a different vendor that we can simply purchase the equipment and have an electrician/fire alarm tech install it.
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It's not like the Honeywell brands where everything is laid out nice and neat on a single page
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5 minutes researching Honeywell and have 10x more useful info than with the simplex stuff, list of compatible devices right on the data sheet for FACP.
