Simplex 4004 Fire Panel

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mikesta
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:31 pm

Hi all,

Nice to see a forum like this out here. I have a Simplex 4004 Panel with 2 areas. I cannot clear the alarms and the trouble light is on. We have tested all the smoke alarms with a smoker and the panel clears them, but the alarm does not go off, however if I reset on the panel it clears the smoke lights.

The tech is saying I need a new main board however he didn't seem to know too much as he kept calling his manager.

We disconnected everything and the alarms still would not clear.

If we pull the fire alarm boxes, the alarm goes off.

Its weird..... the magnetic locks on the doors are off as well as if there is an alarm going on.

Curious if anyone here has any experience with these panels and can lend some insight to a complete noob.
chris+s
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:46 pm

was the tech directly from simplex or from some other alarm company?
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ccs46
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:49 pm

chris+s wrote:was the tech directly from simplex or from some other alarm company?
I was just going to ask that...
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mikesta
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:55 pm

Just a technician that certifies fire alarms.

Let me rewrite.
1. The panel flashes 1 and 2 the .
2. The panel also flashes d, 1 and 2 I believe.
3. The fire alarms are not going off, however we cannot clear the alarms.
4. We completely disconnected the door pulls, smoke alarms and heat sensor
5. We still cannot clear the panel... as it shoud say . . from what I'm told.
6. Also the trouble light is on.

-When we pull the door alarms or wall alarms, the alarm goes off but when we reset it it goes back off
-The magnetic doors won't latch meaning there is an alarm code that needs to clear before sending the full voltage to the doors for magnetism
- all smoke detectors test (red light goes on with smoke test) but they do not sound the alarm.

I can take a short video for you all tomorrow if that helps? Again, really appreciate the help
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kcin556
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:07 pm

Since you said the initiating components of the system have been disconnected and the system will most likely be out of service for more than 4 hours, have the proper authorities in your area been notified? NFPA states to contact the AHJ and provide a fire watch if the system is inoperable for more than 4 hours.

NFPA 101 Section 9.6.1.8:
Where a required fire alarm system is out of service for more than 4 hours in a 24-hour period, the authority having jurisdiction shall be notified, and the building shall be evacuated or an approved fire watch shall be provided for all parties left unprotected by the shutdown until the fire alarm system has returned to service.
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mikesta
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:10 pm

:arrow:
No one has been notified, its a Motel we are trying to get back into service, its been out of service since 2007.
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kcin556
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:16 pm

That changes the dynamic of the situation a lot. Has the building been unoccupied and unmaintained during this time period? 8 years without maintenance will wreak havoc on not only the building itself, but the systems and equipment inside. Did the panel start exhibiting this behavior as soon as power was reapplied?
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mikesta
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:31 pm

well, in Missouri, you don't need the health dept around if you rent out 4 rooms or less.... thats what they did "DID" or didn't do for the last 8 years. Power has never left the building in that time and it was occupied by the prior owners who are now deceased.

Anyone know these 4004 panel boards?
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kcin556
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:13 pm

To talk about what the panel is displaying, if the 4004 is flashing 1, 2 on the red display and d on the yellow display, it means there is a Zone 1 alarm, Zone 2 alarm, and a low/dead battery trouble. If it is is all in the yellow display, that means they are only trouble (bad circuit) conditions. The battery can be ignored for the purposes of troubleshooting because the system will operate without it.

If the alarms on the zones remained with the field wiring removed, the board is shot. If they are only in a trouble condition, the issue preventing a reset is in the building wiring.
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Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:59 pm

mikesta wrote:1. The panel flashes 1 and 2.
2. The panel also flashes d, 1 and 2 I believe.
Is Number 1 above in the red or yellow display?
Number 2 above has to be in the yellow display because the red display does not display "d". That is a battery depleted or disconnected trouble according to the legend that should be inside the door. The batteries are completely dead and need to be replaced.

If the red and yellow displays are both cycling 1 and 2 that is the panel showing both zones in alarm and trouble at the same time.
mikesta wrote:4. We completely disconnected the door pulls, smoke alarms and heat sensor
5. We still cannot clear the panel... as it shoud say . . from what I'm told.
The above is the definitive test. Disconnect the wiring from the panel. Connect resistors to the zones (6.8K) and signal circuits (10K). If the panel does not go normal (except for the battery trouble) then the board needs to be replaced.
mikesta wrote:3. The fire alarms are not going off, however we cannot clear the alarms.
If I understand correctly you are saying that the alarm horns are silent but the display never clears the red indicator?
mikesta wrote:6. Also the trouble light is on.
Anytime the yellow display shows a code that listed in the trouble code legend the trouble light will be on. That is required operation.
mikesta wrote:-When we pull the door alarms or wall alarms, the alarm goes off but when we reset it it goes back off
So is this saying that the horns (or bells) sound when a pull station is pulled and shut off when the station is reset with no action at the panel? The panel should latch the horns on until ALARM SILENCE is pushed.
mikesta wrote:- all smoke detectors test (red light goes on with smoke test) but they do not sound the alarm.
This indicates the zone circuits are damaged and cannot sense that a smoke detector is in alarm. Board is damaged and needs to be replaced.
mikesta wrote:-The magnetic doors won't latch meaning there is an alarm code that needs to clear before sending the full voltage to the doors for magnetism
If the red display always has a number flashing that indicates the panel logic is always in alarm and will not reset the relay operating the doors.
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Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:15 pm

Have you tried power cycling the panel? There's a bug in the 4005 and 4010 firmware that causes it to not reset from an alarm if there's troubles present. It is fixed by power cycling and it might be present in the 4004 too.
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Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:42 pm

I have a 4004 and tried some experiments. If a zone is open and then I short it, the display shows the zone number and the piezo buzzes. The NACs do not turn on. Something I never noticed on 4004 before. All zones are set to "fire monitor".

If I short a zone the panel goes into alarm normally. Opening the zone while it is in alarm also shows trouble then. And the panel will not reset until the zone is restored to electrical normal.

That trait is in all Simplex modern panels. I think it is to prevent a zone from resetting if there was an actual alarm and in the emergency situation the wiring got damaged. It forces checking the area to be sure the emergency situation has been fully handled.
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Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:12 pm

In scenario two in the above post, cycling the power to the panel does clear the alarm. When the panel is powered up, the trouble is still there of course until the EOLR is connected.

Another question, when the alarms and troubles are acknowledged the LED displays should change from flashing to steady. Do they?
mikesta
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Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:30 pm

NewAgeServer wrote:Have you tried power cycling the panel? There's a bug in the 4005 and 4010 firmware that causes it to not reset from an alarm if there's troubles present. It is fixed by power cycling and it might be present in the 4004 too.
How do I power cycle the alarm?
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