Bad Installation Jobs

Fire Alarms
181

Actually, that’s an OK installation. Just because it looks bad doesn’t mean it is.

Here’s what I bet they did:

When they did an upgrade and wanted to install that pull station, it would be VERY expensive and time consuming to flush mount that station in masonry. Ever tried to cut a single-gang hole in brick? Not fun. Not fun at all. (unless, of course, you’re a mason.)

If you are going to surface mount a device, you need conduit leading to a nearby dedicated power-limited fire alarm junction box.
Only power limited fire alarm cable can be run through these pipes and boxes. (and burglar alarm cable if allowed by the AHJ.)
What’s the perfect place to get to one of those boxes? Why, the horn above. There just needs to be access to the junction box, and that can easily be done by protruding it from the wall, or surface mounting it. It may not look too pretty, but it sure works and makes the AHJ happy.
The reason they put two junction boxes on top of each other is simple- they are not truly “junction boxes”, but rather extension rings. They are meant to extend the depth of a junction box for deep devices, like that 4051. The 4051 is deep. So, they needed two boxes to accommodate that oversized electromagnet on the back, and also to make it easier to run the pipe up.

182

First of all, you can run whatever you want through conduit. Your just not allowed to run two services together I.E. 110V and low voltage in one conduit.

Secondly, unless your working through a bid or maintenance contract you don’t care how long it takes …in all other instances your billing someone. You bill PER hour PLUS material BOTH of which you make money on. This is the perfect example of a BID job where they rush to get off the job as quickly as possible… HOWEVER no contractor in their right mind is going to be cutting into that wall to install a pull station unless its an absolute must.

And finally, you need two extension boxes to accommodate the fact that one will be only partially protruding through the existing face plate. If you were to only use one extension ring the conduit would not be able to be attached to the box, hence the second extension ring and large bends.

183

Well, the pull station has always been the same kind since 1974: a Simplex 4251-30 T-bar. At the Oscar F. Raymond elementary school (a rival lookalike school to the Davis K-8 on the north side of town), at that same spot that is at the Davis, the 4051+80 there and the 4251-30 are installed the way they should be. And besides, if they needed to use conduit and junction boxes and the like, they could’ve easily just mounted both the 4051+4050-80 on a single large backbox like this:

Like I said, I am not sure if at the Davis K-8 school, that install job has always been like that since 1974, or it occured when they put in the Simplex 2001 (as I said, all they did during this “upgrade” was replace the panel and the annunciator, and they installed 2098-9806 test stations. I think they did it some time in the 1980s. It has to be from the mid-to-late 1980s, because here is a picture of an older-looking Simplex 2001 annunciator:

(BTW, according to the other pics of that building on the website I took it from, they have Simplex horns behind 2903 light plates, 4251-20 pulls and Simplex-rebranded ESL smokes.)
But the annunciator at the Davis K-8 school seems a tad newer than that:

The Raymond school even has this same kind of annunciator, so I guess THEY must’ve upgraded to a Simplex 2001 panel as well! I bet they’ve got the 2098-9806 test stations, too!

184

at my school, im 5 foot 2 and the pulls r at my head

185

That isn’t necessarily a bad install job. Before the ADA came out, pulls were mounted too high up. Take my HS for example. Because the system is from the 70s, the pulls are at eye-level to average people. One of the pulls in the cafeteria is eye level to me (and I’m 6’1"). How old is your school? How old are the alarms? If they are old, it’s not much of a surprise that the pulls are mounted so high up.

186

The pull stations at Brockton High School (both my school and the user’s high school I am quoting have Simplex systems with 4040 horns) are also mounted nearly at eye-level!

My friend and I visited that school today, taking pictures of things that were ADA-compliant, and things that weren’t. And of course, those pull stations were on the non-ADA list. We are hoping to help support a fundraiser for the school, because they are practically broke, to help bring the school up to ADA codes; the reason why is because it’s the only public high school in the town, and because it’s already getting reputation as a great school in our state, so I think being ADA-compliant would make the good rep stronger

187

at my school a break glass station is mounted 6.5 feet in the air

188

kk my school was built in the 1960’s, and they re did the whole FA system twice. right now the alarms r Spectra’s Advanced and the pulls are 270-SPO. im not really saying it was a bad installation

189

Bad installation jobs? Here’s one for you! And it’s in my future HS!

95% of the alarms in the building are gentex SHGs slapped right on to 4050-80s!

Like THIS photo, just with a SHG instead of a MA/SS

Some even have the light ripped out, leaving a hole for elements to enter into the wiring!

The other alarms are spectras :roll:

There is one functional looking 4050-80 with a 9806 attached to it.

190

Ouch! Why must they always use Gentex GMSs/SHGs or SpectrAlerts for bad install jobs? There is a Fashion Bug near my college with Gentex GMS horn/strobes slapped onto Simplex 2903 light plates! But one 2903 plate still has its original 2901-9833 horn intact. The old Simplex 4251-20 pulls are still intact, one of them with a red metal cage over it, and a couple of others have Stopper IIs, and there are a couple of 2098-9806 test stations as well. AND I also once saw Gentex SHGs slapped onto SAE AV32 light plates!

What are the pull stations like at your future high school? I bet the panel is most likely some kind of Fire-Lite or Notifier garbage.

My college is also doing away with their old Simplex 4051+4050-80s as well, but luckily I have not come across any bad install jobs yet. They mostly just remove the old horn and light plate, and put an SAE VA4 horn/strobe in its place (often on a red trim plate to help cover up traces where the old alarm once was). Most of the buildings that had them now have Faraday panels, but the Administration building has an Ansul Autopulse panel insteadl

And I’ve also seen a 2901-9806 horn on a 4050-80 light plate once. It is in the David E. Crosby administration building, where the main offices for the public school system is located. All the other horns in the 4050-80 plates are Simplex 4051s, so the -9806 might be a later installation. The panel is a Simplex 4208.

191

The pull stations are a mix between simplex T-bars and Bg-12s.

This suggests the school was once built with a simplex system.

192

At my college, the Liberal Arts, Humanities, Fine Arts, Field House and Administration buildings were originally built with Simplex 4208 systems, when they were built in 1978. The other buildings were built in 1971-1972, and originally had Standard Electric Time Co. systems. The Liberal Arts and Humanities buildings had their Simplex T-bars (4251-20 version) removed during the renovation/upgrade, and were all replaced with addressable dual-action Faraday Chevron pulls. But the Fine Arts, Field House and Administration buildings still have the Simplex T-bars intact, many of them with Stopper IIs installed over them. A few of the Simplex pulls died and were replaced with Faraday Chevron pulls, but they are single-action and non-addressable. Until winter 2007, there was still a Simplex 4051+80 from the old system intact in the Liberal Arts building, but it’s gone now. The Fine Arts has two 4051+80s left, and the Field House has one left as well. The Administration building has a 4051 horn installed on a Faraday strobe plate (there used to be another like this, but it too got replaced with a VA4 horn/strobe this summer). The Liberal Arts and Humanities buildings are now powered by a Faraday MPC-7000 panel, the Fine Arts and Field House buildings both now have Faraday MPC-2000 panels, and the Administration building now has an Ansul Autopulse panel.

Besides, it sucked your school district decided to save money by switching to a Honeywell subsidiary. They often do terrible install jobs when it comes to upgrading old fire alarm systems. If they stuck with Simplex, then they would’ve had a quality install job, with all the old signals completely replaced with new ones, and the old pulls replaced with new ones (usually if it’s an addressable system).

Also, when was this school built? I am guessing around maybe the late 1970s, since you said it had a 2901-9806 on a 4050-80 plate.

193

Nothing out there says that just because it’s a Simplex system, it’s going to be installed with quality standards.

Simplex does NOT (that is, N-O-T) run wires, install boxes, install devices, hang conduit, choose horns, choose pull stations, choose smoke detectors, nor do they make all their stuff “neat and pretty”. Simplex may spec the system, but 99% of the Simplex fire alarm systems you see out there are subcontracted to an electrical contractor, who may or may not care. In most cases, the electrical contactor will spec the system, do up the blueprints, do the physical installation of devices, conduit, and wiring, and hang the panel(s). Simplex may only be involved in the programming and testing. I’ve seen more than my share of one-for-one swaps from a competitive system to a Simplex system that were probably done “overnight”. a hotel done yesterday had a one-for-one swap done from a zoned Notifier, with Notifier smokes, to a 4005 system with Simplex smokes and Simplex horns mounted to the system sensor horn trim plates. Chances are, the customer, who ultimately has the most say because he/she signs the check, has the final say. I’m willing to bet that swap was done in one day or less. you can’t blame that on a company or an equipment manufacturer for the way a system or upgrade looks. If an old panel takes a lightning hit (VERY common) and it can’t be replaced due to obsolete parts, he/she will be looking for the cheapest way out of the mess. MOST facilities I go to could care less about how their fire alarm system looks. Everybody here would be surprised to find out how much they could truly care less, as long as it passes inspection. Just yesterday, we noticed a broken heat detector base, allowing the heat detector to hang down by the zone wires. Customer wasn’t concerned, and couldn’t bother to spend the $15 for us to install a new base then and there. Anybody else here ever see a 4002 literally mounted to the front of a 4208 cabinet?

No Honeywell-based system is functionally inferior to Simplex equipment. They’re all different, you just have to know how to use it. It’s confusing as anything to explain to a customer how to use the disconnect functions on a 4005 or 4010, when on any other small panel, it’s as easy as pressing a few buttons.

194

No, but I’ve seen a pic of a newer Simplex annunciator literally mounted onto the front of a Simplex 4208 annunciator! This was at NewAgeServer’s middle school! And this would most likely explain this bad install job involving a Simplex 4051+80 at the Davis K-8 school:

The school was built in 1974, and the Raymond school, another elementary school on the other side of town with the exact same layout/design was built around the same time as the Davis, has a 4051+80 installed the normal way at that spot on the floorplan the Davis has that pictured install job. Even though the school was built in 1974, it obviously appears the old panel died at one point (I think it was originally either a Simplex 4246 or 4208 system), so they replaced the old panel with a Simplex 2001, and they also replaced whatever the old annunciator was with a Simplex graphic annunciator:

And they also installed 2098-9806 test stations around the school; presumably the duct detectors got replaced as well. The test stations look obviously newer since they have the current Simplex logo on them like the annunciator does, but the 4051s, the 4251-30 pulls and the school bells all have the older Simplex logo on them. And that might explain why that 4051+80 wound up like that, maybe the installers did something with the wiring when the new panel was put in and needed to use conduit for that horn/light and the pull station underneath.
However, this happened to the Raymond school as well (I saw they had a similar Simplex annunciator, but I assume they have a 2001 panel and 2098-9806 test stations as well). I heard talk that the Raymond school will be renovated in the future, and I assume the Davis might be renovated as well. If they do, I sure hope the new system replacing that old Simplex 2001 system will be a Simplex 4100U voice-evac system like the one they put in at South Junior High School when it was renovated (it replaced an old cira-1950s Edwards system with 360-L fire horns)

195

Oh boy… Here we go again with the “bad install job” garbage.

196

I saw a 4603-9001 annunciator mounted to the front of a gutted 4001.

your turn!

197

Hey, I work for a Company that sells and installs Notifier equipment, a Honeywell Subsidiary. Business wise, our company is the local equivalent of Simplex, as we deal with detection, supression, and extinguishers. Please don’t call Honeywell or its dealers (big or small) inferior. 1:M1 hit the nail on the head. I don’t know if you guys realize it, but Simplex bids competitively with other companies. Sometimes Simplex wins, sometimes its a Honeywell sub, and it may even be the local GE security dealer that gets the job. Every job, new or replacement, has different requirements and companies try to bid accordingly, taking into account many factors. A while back we replaced a system at an elementary school. It was a Simplex 4010 with 9 pull stations and 2 sprinkler monitor modules. Had Simplex horn strobes as well. For reasons I won’t discuss here, we removed the Simplex and put in a Notifier equivalent. All in all it was about a 1 1/2 day job. 1 day for panel and device replacement, and 1/2 to get a replacement power supply and Simplex synch module to keep the old signals going.

BTW I used to work at Simplex. The branch office here does do installation, which is the department I worked for. I can only relate to you the operations of our local Simplex office. Dan’s office is probably run differently than ours. I am not disputing his info. But, the amount of work we did was nothing compared how many jobs were subcontracted to electrical contractors. And, I do recall a job where we (Simplex) basically replaced a Notifier system. Details escape me at the moment though.

A little over year in the field has put me in tune with the realities of this business, which is just that, a business.

Patrick

198

I’ll let everyone in on a little white trade secret…

Simplex equipment is outrageously expensive. Our price markup is almost highway robbery, it even offends me. Tyco has deep pockets and they always want more, more, more. They’re pushing us inspectors to go through customer facilities and try to sell maintenance contracts for sprinkler systems, emergency lighting, extinguishers, and suppression systems. And if we don’t, we get docked when pay raise time comes around. If we try to sell a replacement part to a customer, we have to print that customer a quote, and get him to sign it, even if he doesn’t want us to do it, to prove that we are trying to sell stuff. I’m not a salesman, I’m not working this job to make money for big, bad Tyco, I’m working here because of the 4,000 fire fatalities annually, and I care about the lives of the people in that building more than I care about a multi-trillion doller conglomerate swallowing up and bankrupting its local competition by stealing all their business away. I would rather the local businesses succeed.

I don’t know what the cost of Simplex devices are off-hand, but it’s not cheap. Our markup prices on replacement batteries is just dishonest. a 7.2 amp-hour battery, very common in small panels, dialers and security systems, is (on average) $18 to $20, even at our cost to purchase them through a local supplier. I paid about $22 for the same size battery at a local Batteries Plus for my security system. However, the cost to purchase one through us is upwards of $55 EACH. I can not look a customer in the eye and expect him to pay $110 for a set of small batteries. Larger batteries easily crest the $100 mark each.

So, a customer may elect to keep his existing stations, horns, etc. in place, and just do a panel swap, quite understandably, so that he’s not bankrupted by the cost of equipment. A speculation, at least, because I don’t know what the price of devices are. But, my resume is made up and I don’t have too many future plans with Simplex. there are a number of reasons, but most of it’s all about money, money, money. A few guys are looking around, too, and a few have already left. Guess I’m more practical than that.

199

I removed a majority of my reply last night however…

90% of the users on this site are hobbyists this means you don’t get paid for your work, you simply enjoy fire alarms. The remaining users are professionals. This means we are paid for our work, we do this work everyday as a way to bring income into our lives.

When it comes to a job I like making the work that I do look nice, I stand back at the end of most jobs and think to my self “does this look good?” However there are some instances where I do not have that luxury for instance a 2am panel change over because of a problem that will force them to either close the building or hire a fire watch until the situation is resolved. I have to do whatever it takes to get the system up and operating as quickly as possible. Another situation for example is during a bid job. The customer is not paying me to plaster and repair spaces where a larger device used to be, they are not paying me to remove old flush mount boxes so the new conduit does not stick as far off the wall. Yes I have some customers that will pay me to do these things but most people do not want to pay an electricians hourly wage to do this work. That is the wage I work at, is an electricians wage which is nearly double or tipple what it costs to have a handyman or their manitance staff come behind me for cosmetic repairs.

Before you want to question peoples work think about this. What makes you qualified to do so? Have you been working in the field? Do you have experience dealing in bid work, customers who want to pay as little as possible? I SERIOUSLY doubt it. So knock it off… you have no right to question this work and call it “bad” look at half the things you do in your videos, I would not even be able to get it pass inspection let alone sell that work to a customer they would demand it be re done if they saw some of the messes you present. So knock if off. Enjoy fire alarms however you enjoy them but STOP question peoples work and calling it “bad”

200

dude do not start a flame war we are DISCUSSING our opinions about what we think. you said what you feel once and then you keep telling us things over and over. just please this is not a tech only forum and keep in mind this is the FA GENERAL DISCUSSION forum. so we are talking about alarms in general and we are discussing our opinions. feel free to talk to me over aim if you have any questions. keep in mind that we understand what you are trying to say and we are not trying to put you down in anyway I just think that you are not letting us talk about alarms in general.