I recently became responsible for maintenance on a medium-sized campus, and oversight of fire alarm systems falls into that. I have a varied background in both general maintenance and IT, but haven’t dealt with fire alarms before, so it has been interesting so far.
We currently have mostly Simplex systems and contract with JCI. We have some older systems needing updates, but funds are short, so we are trying to learn about other options.
So, a first question, if we keep Simplex, is it common to find a partner other than JCI directly? For our area (west Michigan), the Simplex Fire site only lists JCI as a “partner”. That said, it is very confusing, as it seems like Simplex panels and parts are readily available online, and the brand is popular on this board, so I feel like other support options should exist. Do they, or am I wasting my time?
If we were to start moving away from Simplex, which fire alarm ecosystem would provide the smoothest off-ramp? For example, we use a Simplex TSW station for monitoring the campus from our safety desk. Does anything “play nice” with that software, or at least integrate better than average?
I am currently trying to read and learn everything I can about fire alarms, but it is a fairly big topic, so I am hoping for some help in avoiding any obvious dead ends.
well if funds are short then i wouldn’t change who you’re currently with since it’ll be very expensive to replace everything. if you can “control” how often jci comes out and make it less often. in terms of what you mentioned of a system that needs updating, what system is it?
also nothing “plays nice” with tsw, it all needs to be respective to their brands.
Thanks for the reply. We have two panels we consider end-of-life. One is a Simplex 4005, the other is a Silent Knight SK-5208. JCI has suggested we replace the 4005 with a 4007ES hybrid, allowing us to keep our other existing devices in that building. We have no plans yet for the SK panel, but are looking. It does alert into the TSW in a generic manner, from what I understand.
As an alternative, how much risk do we carry keeping these panels in service for another year? They have not given us any trouble that I am aware of.
The 5208 and 4005 are very reliable panels if they don’t have existing troubles. I honestly would not have them replaced until they actually start to have problems like maybe an intermittent ground fault. The 4005 especially is built like a beast.
If I owned a service company I wouldn’t get a contract with JCI to begin with since they’ve both ruined Simplex since they acquired them in 2016 & have done other shady stuff like merge with Tyco just to avoid paying taxes. Yeah: they’re bad news if you ask me. Honeywell isn’t much better I’d say though given some of the fairly recent occurrences with brands they own (such as slashing quality control for Silent Knight’s 6000-series at first upon release which led to power supply failures). The only company I can suggest going with is Edwards: they seem like the last good company left who have both excellent products & excellent customer service.
Who cares: beats being repeatedly screwed over by the parent of the manufacturer you’re working with, no? (which is what JCI’s been doing with Simplex, & by extension all their customers)
In a campus environment you will need to be in a proprietary systems (Edwards, Siemens, Notifier etc…) they will have back bone equipment for hard monitoring (fiber network ring and so on) basically meaning fast information as to what is happening on your Campus to 1 location or more if needed. If you are having alot of issues with your existing systems and i am assuming you are. Majority of your issues will be with old wiring causing ground faults or communication faults with failing equipment. Whether you upgrade the existing or move to another i would suggest replacing all wiring or your troubles will follow to the new system. I have been installing Edwards for 20+ years so i am a bit biased. I would look at what your system is doing for you now and what you would like it to do, Emergency communication or Mass Notification. Do you want to be able to put your campus into a shelter in place from 1 location and so on. Siemens and Simplex like to give the equipment away for future service contracts they play the long game. Edwards, Notifier and such are partner based so you would have more to chose from for service and installation needs.
Edwards, Notifier, & others besides Siemens & Simplex are indeed much less proprietary than the latter, meaning any technician should be able to come out & service the system if need be, rather than a specific manufacturer technician needing to be called: this translates into less headaches, less expense, & less work for both you & your customers (& also means things are more flexible for both of you as well).
As others have said, if nothing is REQUIRING panel replacement, don’t do it. If it were me in your position, however, I’d consider other options going forward when a replacement or new building is required since Simplex is a fairly closed ecosystem.
Now unfortunately yes, no thanks to the executives at JCI: independent/Tyco/pre-JCI Simplex was fantastic though.
At one time Simplex was a respectable brand like Edwards, nowdays though JCI has ruined them. I can definitely agree with you when it comes to Siemens’ proprietaryness (which is a shame as they seem to have some of the clearest voice messages in the industry), but have to disagree when it comes to Edwards: sure there’s some proprietaryness to their systems (isn’t there with most?), but they’re still a lot less proprietary than either Siemens or Simplex.
Thank you to everyone for the great feedback. You have given me a lot to chew on.
The current panels are not having problems, we are just doing capital planning, and of our 30+ buildings these are the oldest panels (the 4005 is also not part of the central monitoring, but that is a separate issue). I don’t like feeling so cornered by JCI, so I figured it would be a decent time to ask questions and look into alternatives.
Since we aren’t having problems, I am thinking we will push these off for one more cycle and use that time to evaluate other options. If we do that, what does a reasonable backup strategy look like? The concern from management is that these panels aren’t made any longer, and repairs might be difficult or impossible. Is a sudden and catastrophic failure of one of these panels realistic, or only a remote possibility? Is anything that might go wrong (e.g. a failed power supply) still likely to be repairable for these older panels for the foreseeable future?
Sorry to hijack my own thread; I can start a new one if that makes more sense. Thank you again to everyone for offering some different perspectives.
I cannot speak for the SK-5208 as I do not have experience with those units, but a catastrophic (especially one which is sudden) failure of a 4005 is very unlikely. The panel will definitely show signs of failure before it completely quits. The 4005 is one of the most reliable (“modern”) panels that Simplex has ever produced, and I have heard that the SK-5208 is also quite reliable.
Parts for both panels are still available on sites like eBay, but you may have trouble finding something brand new - used parts are still available quite widely, but I do not know if the fire code where you are located permits used parts to be installed in a system.
If you do plan to upgrade the buildings at some point, you may want to opt for a 4010ES instead of a 4007ES, as the 4010ES is generally considered to be more reliable (unfortunately, the 4007ES has a bad track record as of recent, mostly due to quality control issues on JCI’s end). EDIT: Depending on the size of the 4005 and 5208 which are currently in operation, you may be able to opt for the 4006 instead. It’s the last conventional system that Simplex is currently making, and can be expanded up to 10 zones. If you need more than 10 zones or would like other features that the 4006 can’t provide (like Priority 2 alarm or similar), you’ll probably want to upgrade to addressable.
If you decide to install something besides Simplex, I can’t really help out there as I don’t have experience with many of the newer systems from different brands.
I will say that both panels are definitely reliable & very nicely designed, which I can say with certainty for the SK-5208 as I have one myself & it’s proven itself very reliable & well-designed since the day I got it (though mine is an older model from around 2006 or so, before Honeywell started tampering with their brands’ quality control).
Good idea considering the 4006 comes from before JCI’s acquisition of Simplex (though JCI may have still screwed with it via cutting quality control) & it’s also much less proprietary compared to the ES-series as well.
I don’t have experience with many brands either but I will say that most brands have to be better than current-era Simplex when it comes to both customer service & product quality going by what I’ve heard & read about JCI.